Yes, you almost have all the features of both services, regardless of which one you’re actually subscribed to. But almost is not ALL. There are features that SimpleLogin has that Proton Pass doesn’t have. Features that a privacy conscious person like myself would like to take advantage of, but cannot because it’s not allowed/possible.
And what are these features that are different or missing? What is missing?
It does not matter. You would never need to have both a Pass+ sub and a SL sub since you get the same benefits.
There are not features missing.
Both Proton and SL have said you get the features of one with the other.
I am not sure why @PurpleDime keeps insisting anything else, its just not true. Its been this way for almost a year.
This could easily be the start of another post, but here goes nothing.
TL;DR: SimpleLogin allows anonymous payments, Proton does NOT.
SL GIFT CARDS CAN BE PURCHASED ANONYMOUSLY
SimpleLogin gift cards can be purchased anonymously from the Proxy Store, which is a trusted third party merchant in the privacy community. I have successfully bought different products from them before. They accept cash and Monero which is the only anonymous cryptocurrency.
The Proxy Store accepts anonymous payments
The Proxy Store’s protocol for accepting cash is truly anonymous. Firstly, you are not directly paying the company whose product you are purchasing (Simple Login). SimpleLogin will never be able to trace who purchased the gift card.
The Proxy Store doesn’t require you revealing your identity
Secondly, the Proxy Store will also never know the identity of who purchased from them. The name on the envelope can easily be faked, and the content of the letter only needs to contain the cash and a 6 digit alphabet code (ABCDEF). Nothing else. If the post office or a bad actor opened the letter, they would have no idea what it means nor what it is for.
Thirdly, once the Proxy store receives your letter, they optionally email you with a message simply saying that your purchase is complete and that your gift card can be claimed. That is it. Nothing else. You then claim your gift card with a link that you must have saved and kept when you generated your purchase code, before sending the letter.
Proxy Store gift cards can be applied to any account
Your gift card can then be applied to any SimpleLogin account. It doesn’t have to be yours. You can gift it to a friend, a family member, or to a complete stranger on the internet anonymously if you wish to. All you have to do is share the link with that person.
PROTON DOES NOT ACCEPT ANONYMOUS PAYMENTS
Cash payments are merely pseudonymous
Proton accepts cash payments, but they require that you declare your Proton username, which compromises your privacy. You have to write it in the letter, meaning that there is a real person at Proton that will upgrade your account internally and see your profile.
For many Proton Mail users, if not the overwhelming majority, your Proton username is linked to your real identity. It’s probably your real name. Even if you used any of your secondary pseudonymous Proton Mail addresses, they are still linked with the one with your real name, which reveals your identity.
Moreover, you can’t make a Proton cash payment for a third party (friend, family, stranger) without them sharing their username with you and compromising their privacy. Proton’s name also has to appear on the envelope, unlike the Proxy Store, which only requires their address.
Proton gift cards cannot be purchased with cash
Proton has gift cards, which can only be bought directly through them. They are not sold by any third party merchants like the Proxy Store. In addition, they can only be purchased via KYC methods, i.e. credit card, PayPal or cryptocurrencies that are not anonymous (not Monero). They cannot be purchased with cash. That means that they are traceable to you and/or whoever you gift them to, and hence they compromise your privacy.
It’s really ironic that on the one hand Proton cash payments require you declare your username, and on the other, gift cards, which don’t require it, can’t be purchased with cash. It makes you wonder if it’s intentional.
CONCLUSION: PROTON PASS & SIMPLE LOGIN ARE NOT 100% FULLY MERGED
Because SimpleLogin and Proton Pass have separate subscriptions, and separate payment processing companies, it is not possible to apply an anonymously purchased SimpleLogin gift card to any native Proton subscription, nor is it possible to apply a Proton gift card to an SL subscription.
Even beyond anonymous payment methods, it is not possible to pay for an ongoing Proton Pass subscription via Simple Login or vice versa via any payment method, because the subscriptions are separate.
At first, you said they are not separate despite me demonstrating otherwise, now you’re saying that it does not matter. Those are two different things.
Does this mean you are acknowledging that Proton Pass and SimpleLogin subscriptions are separate?
You also did not answer this question. I’d appreciate it if you’d address it.
Unfortunately, it does matter for my user case.
Yes, that’s what they said in their marketing, but it turns out, there are a few features that are NOT interchangeable. Features that users like me would love to take advantage of.
Unfortunately, it is. I don’t know why you can’t understand that.
If you don’t like Proton/SL this much, Don’t use them?
How is Bitcoin not anonymous if I have a non-KYC Bitcoin UTXO? It can be acquired using P2P trading platforms like Retoswap, mixers like CoinJoin, decentralized swaps like THORChain, or centralized non-KYC swaps like Trocador.
If you really believe Monero (XMR) is the anonymous cryptocurrency, then you can take advantage of that fact and do an XMR → BTC trade or swap, so there’s no way the BTC you receive can be linked to you, because XMR can’t be tracked as you believe. After you get the BTC from the XMR → BTC swap, use it for your Proton payment.
Proton accepts cash. That is anonymous. I disagree with you here. You can also buy Proton gift cards (with your card) and then add them to your account. There is no way for Proton to connect the two.
You are being unreasonably pedantic and difficult. That’s the best way I can describe your thinking to this discussion. Sorry, but I don’t agree with you.
Furthermore, you are once again moving the conversation to something else because were were talking about the features of Proton Pass and Simplelogin - and payment options are not product features. So, your long comment still does not answer my original questio nor does it stay on point.
Obviously. They are different products and tools with different names and platforms online. Why would it not be this way?
–
Sigh
You do you. I feel your thinking and logic is flawed. Not sure why you feel this way with it.
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I just tested it today. I pressed ‘Unlink account’ (in SimpleLogin) and there was a warning: “All your aliases will be removed from Proton Pass. Are you sure?”
So it doesn’t work like the way you described in the previous comment.
That’s not much of a surprise, you cant have aliases on a Pass account that are not linked with those aliases.
The message does not seem to be saying they will be deleted.
The real question is, can you re-link your Proton account after to get the aliases back?
My assumptions are
1 - you will be able to link the account again to have the aliases restored on your Pass account.
2 - The aliases are still able to be managed on SL regardless.
What do you mean by “get the aliases back”? And yes, you can re-link your Proton account after unlinking.
You are correct.
But what does it have to do with what you suggested me (not the method you suggested @PurpleDime, we have different goals)?
It seems you have forgotten what you suggested me:
Ah yeah I see what you mean.
It seems like SL is the crux, which makes sense since that is where the aliases are made.
Which means you can transfer aliases from one Pass account to another by switching what is linked to SL, as I suggested to @PurpleDime but, you cannot transfer aliases from one SL account to another (outside of the transfer function which is one at a time), which is what you need. If I am understanding correctly.
It might be worthwhile to email proton support. They obviously have a function to transfer aliases, so they may be able to assist in transferring a bunch at once.
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Yes, that is what I need and haven’t found a better way to do it.
Sadly not all account can do that. If you log in SimpleLogin the first time using the ‘Log in with Proton’ button, you won’t be able to unlink your Proton account.
That sucks. Changing the login email doesn’t fix that?
Nope, I tried changing the email address from a Proton Mail email address to a third-party email address (gmail.com) and the only thing that changed is all announcement and notification emails from SimpleLogin are now sent to the new Gmail email. The unlink button didn’t appear after I changed the login email. And when I press the ‘Log in with Proton’ button, I can still access that SimpleLogin account with the new login email. In other words, I can now log in that same account with 2 methods: using the new login email, and using the ‘Log in with Proton’ button. They both lead to the same account.
Actually they can. I think I pasted official Proton support response some time ago under some post. Only way to stay purely anon is to buy sub via cash or crypto. If you buy Proton sub via gift cards in Proton store, they are able to link gift card with the account, thus revealing your identity.
Also, if some point in your account lifetime you pay with a non-anon payment, like credit card or Paypal or mobile provider, that info will stay in your account for an undefined time. Proton refused to disclose the exact retention time, instead they only said within legal timeframe in Switzerland. Now, considering they are slowly moving out of Switzerland and going to EU, that will also change.
what is wrong with asking username? When initially creating your Proton account, just put some random letters and numbers as your account name and that should be it.
Are we not allowed to criticize the products and services we use and pay for?
I like Proton Pass. I use it every day. That doesn’t mean I can’t have some criticisms. And I don’t think my criticisms are unreasonable. People in the privacy community have different needs and UX with apps, and that’s perfectly fine. SimpleLogin has some unique features that I love and would like to take advantage of, but I can’t.
I have two full notebooks with 40+ notes where I wrote down the issues I encountered with apps I use and the features that I would like them to implement in the future. This is something I have done for years, and it has served me well. I have even been invited on Zoom calls (!) with some of the companies behind those apps to discuss those issues.
Unfortunately, all the technical stuff you just explained is completely foreign to me.
I am not a cryptocurrency expert. In fact, I’m a total newbie. I follow the advice and guidelines of prominent trustworthy voices in the privacy community like PG and Tech Lore. They have taught me that Bitcoin is not anonymous, and that Monero is the only anonymous cryptocurrency, which is why it’s the only they recommend. I trust their judgment.
Cash is anonymous, yes. But when it can be linked to your identity, its anonymity erodes.
I don’t like customer service agents looking specifically into my online accounts and profiles without my knowledge or consent. If I can avoid it, I will.
Exactly.
Comrade, this is a privacy forum.
I don’t think I’m being unreasonable at all.
These kinds of details may not be significant to you, which is fair. I can respect that. But they are to me, and I would imagine, other people too.
The differences between privacy, pseudonymity, and anonymity are commonly discussed topics in the privacy community, including in the context of payments.
Privacy is a spectrum.
We’re all on different levels of that spectrum, and I don’t think I am even remotely on the extreme side. There are people on this forum who are on a much higher level than me, and I don’t believe they’re in the vicinity of extreme either. Arguably, most of us subscribe to an advanced threat model, which is a wide spectrum in itself, but extreme is in an immensely distant stratosphere, IMHO.
The average privacy-conscious person is often considered extreme by regular folk for opting out of surveillance capitalism and choosing privacy-respecting services instead. Every time I send a passphrase-protected file via E2EE cloud service to my friends, family, and colleagues, they think I am being extreme. They are so accustomed to surveillance that they see protecting my privacy as irrational. But that doesn’t mean it is.
I completely disagree.
Payment options are unquestionably a feature.
Just like legal jurisdiction, it is a relevant factor for many people and hence an important feature. It’s a topic that is frequently discussed in the wider privacy community and on the FAQ pages of various privacy services.
I was drawn to specific privacy tools precisely because of their anonymous payment options. I know people who are not comfortable using certain online merchants if they do not accept PayPal, because they do not want to disclose their credit card information. PayPal provides a certain level of security for them, and it’s perfectly understandable. It’s the same logic here.
Making your service purchasable via the Proxy Store is a HUGE selling point for me and others. When a privacy service significantly raises the bar in a specific area, it’s natural to want and expect others to meet that bar.
Consequently, payment options are unquestionably a feature, even if it’s not a feature you particularly care about.
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That’s the thing. Evidently, it is not obvious.
It is not uncommon for sister companies to accept each other’s gift cards as payments. As a result, it’s not unreasonable for anyone to believe they would potentially be able to do the same with Proton and SimpleLogin.
I made the assumption that Proton Pass and SL were now the same subscription, and I was corrected by Proton. I shared this information on this forum because I didn’t think it was obvious to the privacy community, and I was evidently right based on the many objections I got.
After I shared that information, with screenshots from Proton Support as evidence, there are still people who deny it and believe that the subscriptions are 100% one and the same. They continue to believe that all the features from both products are interchangeable, when they are not.
I’m sorry, but to me, that is manifestly far and away from obvious.
Proton and Stripe keep records for up to 10 years
My understanding is that Proton keeps a partial record of your credit card info (last digits) for up to ten years. And that their payment processing company, Stripe, keeps a full record, of payments, also for up to 10 years. That is what I remember being told by Proton’s legal team when I asked them. I am surprised they wouldn’t tell you.
It’s important to remember that SimpleLogin has a different payment processing company (Paddle), and that it’s possible that they have different rules, though probably unlikely.
I believe I explained why.
Pseudonymity ≠ Anonymity
Usernames cannot be changed. And random usernames compromise your privacy when they are linked to the one that reveals your real name. It is not clear to me if Proton keeps a record of your display name history, but even if they didn’t, it’s irrelevant if your username is your name. Also, if you’ve ever interacted with Proton support under your real name, they have a record of it.
First login is irrelevant
I believe that how you log in the first time is irrelevant. It has to do with whether your account is natively a standalone SimpleLogin account or a Proton account acquired through a native Proton service (e.g. Proton Pass).
When I tried to log into SimpleLogin for the first time, it was not via Proton. It was via SimpleLogin’s website. The attempt failed. My password manager didn’t even recognize the login page because my account was created via Proton’s website, not SimlpeLogin’s.
What do you even mean? Honestly, the way you understand how things work here is inaccurate. Obviously, you cannot use your Proton account credentials as SimpleLogin credentials, and of course, the password manager doesn’t recognize the fields. But that is irrelevant. The attempt failed because the first time you go to your SimpleLogin website, your SimpleLogin account was not even created yet. If you have never logged into SimpleLogin with your Proton account before, and you press the button that has the text ‘Log in with Proton’ on SimpleLogin’s website, a new SimpleLogin account will be automatically created. And when you do it that way, you cannot unlink your account.
And did I say log in on Proton’s website? No. I said log in on SimpleLogin’s website with the ‘Log in with Proton’ button (to be clear, the button is inside SimpleLogin’s website).
How exactly did you log into SimpleLogin with your current Proton account then?
This is inaccurate. I will try to explain this in another way. Let’s take a look at two scenarios here:
Step 0 (before the two scenarios happen):
- You sign up for a new account on proton.me, creating a new Proton account that includes a Proton Mail email address. Let’s call this email address purple@proton.me. Let’s say the password is ABC123.
- You sign into your Proton account through proton.me on your browser. So at this point, you’re signed in.
Scenario 1:
- After Step 0, you go to SimpleLogin.io and are currently not signed in on SimpleLogin.
- You press the button that has the text ‘Log in’.
- You press the button that has the text ‘Log in with Proton’.
- You’re now being redirected to Proton’s website briefly for authorization. On the screen, it says “Loading Proton Account…”. The authorization is successful because your Proton account is already logged in (Step 0). After a few seconds, you’re directed to SimpleLogin. The system has just created a new SimpleLogin for you behind the scene.
- You have just created a new SimpleLogin account that is permanently linked to your Proton account and cannot be unlinked later.
Scenario 2:
- After Step 0, you go to SimpleLogin.io and are currently not signed in on SimpleLogin.
- You press the button that has the text ‘Sign Up.’ Now you’re going to create a new SimpleLogin account manually.
- You sign up with the following information: Email Address: purple@proton.me. Password: XYZ456 (you can use whatever password here).
- You go to your Proton Mail and confirm the registration with the email SimpleLogin sent to your email address purple@proton.me.
- You have just created a new SimpleLogin account that is linked to your Proton account and can be unlinked later.
You don’t have to believe what I say. Just create a new account and test the methods I explained, and let me know the result.
I think that is true, but if you already have a Proton account, how you use your Proton account to sign in to SimpleLogin for the first time determines which type of SimpleLogin account you will have.