Is privacy a right of the wealthy? Is privacy a status symbol?

Questions
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Hi -

Maybe this was covered before with some different angles but lately I’ve been having this uneasy feeling, kind of a quiet panic, about how privacy could be becoming more and more of a luxury. With everything going on globally (governments tightening controls, corporations expanding data collection, tech evolving fast), I can’t help but wonder, are we slowly leaving people behind when it comes to digital privacy?

I’m lucky enough right now to afford a private email service (I know also that private email has very limited impact if the rest of us are not in the same spot) and a decent VPN. But that made me think, how many people can’t afford even those basic tools? What happens when access to privacy starts depending on how much money you have?

Are we getting to a point where someone’s email address tells you something about their financial situation? Like, is a @proton.me @pm.me address going to say “this person cares about privacy and can pay for it,” while a @gmail.com says “default, no-frills, mass surveillance”?

Is that where we’re heading? Is privacy turning into a kind of status symbol?

I’m aware that there are ways to get privacy conscious emails for free but they are very limiting and I’m not sure that we have a single free VPN service that we can recommend. Those I think are the minimal things nowadays to integrate the society. Luckily we still have some real-time chat applications that are free and offers some decent level of privacy. If you want to step up the game, then you need a home server, time, etc (the toll can be as high as the sky), that doesn’t include all the comfort that you may need to sacrifice, like reduce the use of credit cards, don’t adopt social medias, use uncountable amount of security everywhere, etc… Don’t you get some level of anxiety if you will be able to keep up with the costs?

  • How do we make privacy tools more accessible and sustainable for everyone?

  • What are the real “costs” of maintaining privacy today financially, mentally, socially?

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Proton is free for this reason though, you can get privacy by default but if you want/need extra features you can upgrade to a paid plan.

I think privacy is fairly accessible for people, most of the tools that people can use to improve their privacy are freemium, it makes sense why VPNs cost money though as bandwidth doesn’t grow on trees. Even if you don’t use a VPN you can still use Tor Browser freely for extra sensitive browsing,

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Don’t you get some level of anxiety if you will be able to keep up with the costs?

Not really at least not in the same way I do with Apple products. Ultimately if Proton became a cost barrier for me I would export my data and downgrade to a free plan. This mostly would just be getting Proton drive down to the free limit. Most other features would either be suspended or unavailable. As I recall, even SL will continue to receive mail - you just can’t create new addresses if past the free limit.

All in all, it’s good to prioritize data portability when considering a new service.

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I think a certain reasonable degree of privacy can still be afforded by the masses, its just that people have this free is good mentality - why have privacy when you can have Tiktok, YT Shorts and Meta to distract you from your problems.

There are also some institutions that also dont care and continue to be on Facebook because the incumbents are boomers who simply do not understand and do not want to appreciate the nuances of tech and privacy. I am sort of risking some aspect of my career by not being in Facebook.

I also feel like I do not have the pulse of the current zeitgeist and feel sort of an outsider.

But you know what, F— it. I like the sanity of disconnectedness, especially with how somehow I feel like we are reaping some sort of divisiveness sowed several years ago on social media and in traditional media.

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I think this is a really good question as poverty can be extreme and even one additional Euro a month be hard to carry for some. It that sense, yes privacy is a commodity.

There is a big advantage in FOSS projects, they are often cheap to free (both in freedom and free beer) and often, but not always, good with privacy. You can probably get to a strong level of privacy for free, there is Tor and some free VPNs (Riseup, Proton, Calyx?) and there are multiple E-Mail (proton, tuta) providers with limited free tiers.

Using Linux instead of Windows will give you a OS that phones home less and some device manufactures sell their devices with Linux on a ~140€ discount. Lenovo Cuts the Windows Tax and offers Cheaper Laptops with Linux Pre-installed

While this should continue to be looked at, I think its okay right now.

BTW Techlore did a video om free privacy tools a while back Completely Free & Private VPN Guide for Android (Unlimited & Legit!) - Neat.Tube

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I think this is a very important notion. And it is not only about financial costs: many people lack the resources to make choices that improve their privacy. Examples include knowledge, time, technological skills, ability to read well and being able to critically assess all the available information. I am confident PG is helpful here, but I am afraid that for many its recommendations are too difficult to grasp.

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I would argue no. While the reason you’re worrying is warranted, believing privacy is out of reach is not.

Think about it. What does it take to get to 85% privacy and security if 100% is Snowden level threat model.

Many things can be done for free and select few things cost a few dollars a month for the most part. Biggest privacy improvements if you ask me is changing your online habits (search engines, browsers, uBO, and other settings you can enable within all those including keeping your browser as ephemeral as possible - all free), using a password manager, giving up social media (free), using Signal (free), using ProtonMail or TutaMail (can be used for free), and using a VPN (paid, but dirt cheap). You can get Mullvad VPN for 1 EUR per month per device (that if need be can be shared if you’re highly price sensitive) which is cheap even in developing countries.

I argue doing all of the above will get you atleast 85%. The last 10% is choosing the right mobile device (iPhone 17 onward for the new chipset) or a Pixel with GrapeheneOS. If one doesn’t have it, then it’s expensive for sure. If one has it, then it’s again very cheap to free to get more privacy and security.

Other encryption apps, tools, and utility apps are a variable. Veracrypt and Cryptomator is free. Portmaster for/on Linux and Windows is free for network monitoring, but Little Snitch is paid on macOS (albeit LuLu also exists for basic needs).

The last 5 % is really not needed for the average to even a person with high threat model where nation states are not after you.

I think you’re reading too much into it and assuming more than you should. Almost everyone uses Gmail only because they don’t think they can move to any other provider that is equally as good. Proton is changing that. Also, people using Gmail and other Google services are mostly those who do not yet care or know enough about how to better themselves and their privacy and security to even go actively looking for alternatives that just work like Gmail. This does not mean it’s indicative of their financial situation. Not sure what logic you’re applying here to think this.

Again, no.

For actual & proper communication, this basic functionality is more than enough to get great privacy and security. What you’re asking or implying for when saying they are limiting is all the other features that such emails entail that are missing. And for that, yes. But that’s still not needed to actually communicate with someone privately and security. You always get the MVP for free - the nice to haves additions will cost of course.

Again, for 85-90% of folks, you don’t need to step it up any more than what you can do on your computer. THat’s a big if that I don’t think should be accounted for as you are considering it.

Freemium model is what would work best. People get the basic functionality of the core product and service for free. Any features associated with it are always to be thought of an add on for which they can charge if you want unlimited use of everything they can offer.

Or, developers and software makers can choose to be non profits and develop tools in the name and spirit of FOSS but this is not always sustainable as projects need funding because developers also have bills to pay.

You need to define “costs” here for me to answer this accordingly with how you mean it. I am interpreting this in a few different ways. In my view, people often overthink things when it comes to privacy and security and feel the “cost” is way more than they are honestly willing to give up or live with and hence begin developing this type of mindset around it. There is little cost once you have established the privacy set up for yourself per your threat model.

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I agree with the answers that have already been provided, but I think @Cyber-Typhoon makes an interesting point.

Around the world, governments are feverishly trying to make it so that only they (elected politicians, unelected bureaucrats, and the military) have privacy and security. According to ‘them’, the people who elected them do not matter.

When I can read, listen to, or view every communication of ‘them’, then, and only then, will I consider allowing ‘them’ into my life.

You show me yours, and I’ll show you mine! :wink:

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This has been going on for over a decade. Of course, privacy is becoming a luxury. You are right on the money. I am glad other people are starting to have this realization.

High-end smartphones are a luxury few can afford

To me, this became very clear when Apple products, especially the iPhone, started being promoted as better for privacy than Android and Windows. I know that the primary reason most people buy an iPhone is not privacy, but it doesn’t change the fact that there is truth to the idea that many people buy Android because they can’t afford an iPhone. That’s why they get made fun of. Most people who buy Android don’t buy high-end Androids.

For me, if I can’t pay for something cash, it means I cannot afford it. I can’t afford to pay $500, let alone $1000+ for a phone. I paid for an iPhone once in my life, and it cost me USD $60+/month for 2 years. It was the first and last time I paid for one. The 2nd time I got an iPhone was because my cousin gave me her old iPhone since she was buying a new one. When it eventually died, I still could not afford an iPhone and have been buying entry level to mid-range Android phones ever since. I can’t afford a high Android like the Google Pixel.

I agree that a lot of free tools people don’t use are available, and it’s sad that it can still be a hurdle to persuade them to try those tools.

It doesn’t cost money to quit social media but there is still a cost. For some people social media is their only social connection and their best chance at finding work, love, and friends. I definitely think I’m paying a cost for not being on LinkedIn and FB.

I highly recommend you read @em’ article Stay Safe, but Stay Connected. The discussion for it is here.

I think what @Cyber-Typhoon is saying is that having a paid Proton address is an indicator of what you can afford. I tend to agree. By itself, it doesn’t mean you’re rich, but for those who recognize it, it indicates that you have the means to afford a paid Proton account.

I am not an expert on cutlery, and hence would not recognize a super expensive, fancy brand if I saw it in someone’s home. But I know people who would.

I agree with OP.

Privacy can be a status symbol. Especially if it’s a paid privacy tool. Someone who is already in the club might not read it as such, but to someone for whom it is inaccessible, I can 100% see how it would be a status symbol.

I personally don’t know anyone IRL who uses Proton Mail or Tuta. If I ever encountered such a person, I would be impressed. I see the iPhone and all Apple products as a status symbols. Even if it doesn’t necessarily mean the person who owns them is affluent, it’s still a status symbol, and to some degree an indicator of class because they are expensive products.

When I see people mention they have a visionary Proton account, I see it as a status symbol.

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I mean.. if I buy a banana or a hot dog or a bag of potato chips, that would also be indicative of what I can afford. This logic applies to anything anyone buys. Not sure why it’s being said here or presented here in a way of it being a novel idea.

Again.. duh.. no?

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Am I missing something here? I’m confused.

Sigh.

Not sure why.. it’s like buying any commodity or a subscription. You buy things that you value. If one values privacy and can afford to buy tools, they do. If they can’t, there are free ways to go about the same with less frills.

Please explain the logic with which you believe or think of it as a status symbol.

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Proton Mail is free and provides a lot of value, but I agree with @Cyber-Typhoon that there are enough limitations to it that, IMO, it becomes impractical to use as one’s default email if you’re not on a paid plan.

I only started using my Proton address as a default once I upgraded, and that was 3+ years after being on a free plan, during which I rarely used my Proton address, partly because I didn’t want to expose it to SPAM.

I think one of Proton’s goals should be to gain enough paid subscribers to make more and more Proton Mail features free.

However, there are 2 things that Proton does that to me smacks of enshittification and dark patterns.

1) Not allowing multiple subscriptions under the same account.

I’ve talked about this before here and here.

2) Adding friction/Removing Features from Proton VPN that were once free

You now have to wait 2 min every time you want to switch countries in the free version of Proton VPN. It wasn’t like that before. This is the textbook definition of enshittification.

To me, both of these practices are unacceptable and deliberately punish users with modest means.

The freemium model is a good model, but like I said earlier, IMO, privacy companies should work on attracting enough paid users so that they can improve the free version of their services and eventually make their paid tiers cheaper.

There is a right way and wrong way to do freemium.

I have personally never upgraded to the paid version of a service if I thought the free version sucked. I need to be impressed by the free version to want to upgrade. And there are many services whose free version satisfied me so much that I never felt the need to upgrade (Evernote) or I eventually did but only after a good couple of years. And I have never allowed myself to be bullied by companies who remove free features. Never. That’s why I never paid for Evernote and switched to Notesnook.

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Is that how businesses that exist to make money so they can keep improving their services work? Play that out and see how it’ll go. It won’t work.

Sure, it’s what you think. But there’s a logical inconsistency here you appear to be overlooking.

Furthermore,

Not allowing some things to be the way you want to be or making changes to a product as their suite evolves is enshittification? Honestly, I don’t think you have a throrough grasp of what enshittification is. And if you think you do, then I’m afraid its you who are highly sensitive to any changes a company may decide to make as they themselves grow and make changes as they see fit for how they want to grow.

Calling the examples you’ve given enshittification is unfair. But perhaps you’re expecting too much for free that you consider to be core part of the service that should be free. I have to disagree with that thinking as I’ve assessed it based on your comments and what I could pragmatically infer.

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It’s never been a secret that your purchases reveal your class status to some degree.
@Cyber-Typhoon was right to remind that it also applies to privacy purchases.

I was listening to a podcast that said something along the lines that 15 years ago, remote contact access for services were considered a luxury and in person contact was the norm. Now it’s becoming the reverse. Remote contact services are becoming the norm, and in person contact services are becoming a luxury that only the affluent can afford.

I also think that when something is the norm to you, it’s easy to not see it as a privilege because you’re used to it. But when you meet someone who is less privileged than you, you tend to start to realize. This applies to everyone.

Maybe? I think you are missing that @Cyber-Typhoon is saying that paid Proton addresses can be recognized. Meaning that if you email me on my Gmail account with a @pm.me address, I will know that you have a paid Proton account because only paid accounts have that domain. Of course, one has to know about Proton to recognize that.

But even if you don’t know, if your friend tells you they pay for Proton and you know you can’t afford it, some people will rightly read it as a status symbol.

I wonder if you think that reading something as a status symbol means people think you are a show off or a bad person? Because that’s not what it means. It just means that it reflects what you can afford in life, and those who can’t afford it, but even those who are in the club will recognize it as a status symbol.

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Then I guess my contention more is with your labeling of purchasing something as a status. Whether it is or not, why think in those terms? What purpose does that serve anyone? Do you need to know this metadata about someone to evaluate who or what they are or whether you want to be associated with them? Is there a bias you’re looking for or looking to curtail? Again, not sure of why you’re looking at it this way to begin with.

Long before, Proton did used to allow even free users to have a @pm.me address along with the other. It was akin to a free alias. This is true now, but it does have a tiny exception. FYI.

I find such mindsets old think and quaint, in a bad way. This should not be the case. Use what you can afford. No judgement should be passed.

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I’m not seeing this your way. But thanks for explaining.

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Hey, this got some traction and has very good points. I won’t be engaging in each comment but just to make sure that this is going in the right direction. There is a bit of a focus in demystifying if Proton is priced fair and its freemium model nevertheless I think I wasn’t specifically targeting one email provider when I opened this for discussion.

I was looking to understand if you feel optimist or a bit pessimist with the potential large scale adoption of privacy methods by the non-privileged classes in the globe. It sounds that many here feels very optimist.

Privacy suddenly became a business, and somewhat is now marching on something almost essential, kind of another consumer evil of the modern life. We can’t negate the fact that in some aspect we contribute to make it a bit more niche with mottos like “if is free you are the product”.

If you travel to sub-developed countries and visit areas where people have access to internet, they are super exposed to all data mining practices. Some people on those areas may struggle to have access to food or some basic things that people in this forum don’t have to deal. They have email accounts, because they are recruited to work using those methods and they correspond and start their digital life well behind of the developed areas and countries. They use the most famous browser, etc. They don’t have the privilege to be educated about privacy or the financial means.

Back to what I was trying to elaborate, privacy should be a right, like access to food, water, but like those things it isn’t. How can we make it a bit more easy to all? I feel that there is a very good promising aspect on the open source world but many things can’t be supported just by goodwill.

I don’t have answers, I only have food for thought.

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Yes, generally true. Unless the product and company behind it does not have a business model. Hence why I said freemium before. Some good things can be free. And some even better things can be paid. You are still not the product here if you use the free things. It of course depends on the thing but you get the idea.

Then this debate becomes about solving other problems and not evaluating your titular questions. If this is the case, and will be as you assumed things, then there’s a different and a bigger problem to solve than to answer your titular questions. No one should use folks who don’t have much as an excuse to answer this question.

In time, with more non profit initiatives and spreading awareness and educating people. And we are doing the latter here on PG.

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I’m not saying that this is how businesses works. I also believe that under the right conditions, it could work because there are online services that I have been paying for years that have gotten cheaper in one of two ways. Either I start paying less for the same price or I continue to pay the same but get more value. That has happened to me with quite a few services.

I’m not saying all businesses can do that, but the fact that some can and have, makes me believe that Proton potentially could too.

One thing I know about business that makes no sense to me is that it constantly needs to grow. Anything short of growth is considered a failure. In other words, if a business makes 10 billion dollars in net profits in 2025, but makes 9.5 billion dollars in profits the next year, it’s considered a failure. That makes zero sense to me.

Why not apply the same logic to their employees? If my salary doesn’t increase every year, it means I’m failing.

I’ve been reading and following Cory Doctorow, the person who popularized the term, for many years. I think I understand what enshittification means. His book comes out next month, by the way. I can’t wait to read it!

One of the reasons people collectively accept enshittification and privacy invasions is because we are nudged into it. It begins with a small change that makes things a little bit worse. When companies see little backlash, they up the ante, and they keep making things worse until there is little you can do about it.

The Case of Evernote

This is exactly what happened with Evernote. At first, they removed one free feature, which was decreasing the number of simultaneous devices you could be connected to. They kept reducing it until it was just one device. I still didn’t budge because I only used Evernote on my desktop.

After progressively removing the number of simultaneous devices you could connect to, they limited the number of notes and notebooks you could have. And let’s not forget their privacy scandal when they revealed that some employees will read your notes to improve features.

Proton is doing the same

Proton is doing the exact same thing by adding friction to the ability to change countries on the free version of Proton VPN. They are deliberately making the user experience worse to compel you to upgrade. That’s enshittification 101. Just because it’s a small change does not mean it’s not enshittification.

By not allowing people to have more than one subscription under the same account, Proton are deliberately making our user experience worse even when we are paying for their products.

Hot take

I’m going to say something very controversial about a practice that pretty much every company, including privacy companies, are guilty of. To me, emphasizing the monthly cost of a yearly subscription when you will be paying yearly, is a dark pattern.

Many times, I have been fooled into thinking I would be paying monthly for a product because of this trick. If I will be paying yearly, companies should show and emphasize the yearly cost instead of the monthly cost.

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I don’t agree but thanks for explaining why you think so. It’s not wrong necessarily to have this view, but surely not realistic - for Proton in this case from what I understand all about them.

Yes, I agree. This is the thinking that’s become the norm. It’s wrong. But people and corporations still consider this the right metric. This is why nickle and diming customers become a thing leading to enshittification for that percent growth next quarter. Nothing keeps growing forever except cancer.

No, it doesn’t mean that. But I take your point.

Okay. Thanks for showing you do know what it means. Your comments before implied otherwise. Good. I can’t wait to read the book either.

Companies are going to find this the hard way, eventually. This reckoning is coming to them. For example: look at the piracy numbers post COVID. This will affect every indsutry in meaningful ways that will or should lead them to become more like how Arizona Ice Tea functions. Their leadershiop is rational unlike almost everyone else in leadership position.s

Like I said before, you may be too sensitive to such or small changes and labeling it as enshittification. I don’t agree here.

Atleast you’re self aware others don’t like or agree with this type of thinking.

Being a little careful helps. Clicking on things without reading and understanding especailly when you’re buying something is on you/the customer. It’s not devious as Amazon or evil as Adobe. This is a huge spectrum.

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This is where I believe the crux of the issue is. You seem to think that you are being judged for your privacy purchases. That is not the case at all, my friend. This is a privacy community where many people pay for privacy services, including myself.

I have no judgment for anyone who can afford a Proton Visionary or Proton Unlimited account. None whatsoever. I also want to remind you that I am not the one who brought up the term “status symbol” in the context of privacy. That was @Cyber-Typhoon, and yes, I agree with them.

Society and companies, to a great degree too, confer value and hence status to many different things. Society decides that this is more valuable than that. And when people believe and act upon that belief, they confirm that value. It is the unfortunate world we live in.

If society decides that something is not worth much, it is often very difficult to make them believe otherwise if you disagree.

Firstly, when you interact with people, there are things that you can’t hide about yourself because they are plain for all to see. It’s not like people IRL are seeking to find out info about you that you did not share.

But more importantly, no one is suggesting that because you can afford X privacy product, you are a good person or a bad person. Absolutely no one. It’s irrelevant to your value as a human being. At least it should be.

However, because we live in a world where society confers value to different things, there are going to be some people who will suspect you of being cool if they find out you use Proton. :smiling_face_with_sunglasses:

Just like some people who will find you uncool if they see you use Android. It’s the sad world we live in. :disappointed_face:

I want to reiterate that no one here is judging anyone for being able to afford certain privacy services. Where there might be strong disagreements is if people say that X product is cheap or affordable, when to some, it might not be.

Yes, I’m not sure what the situation is now, but what I remember when I signed up for my free account is that you could use @pm.me to receive mail but not to send. In other words, instead of telling people your address was j.smith@protonmail.com you could tell them it was j.smith@pm.me.

You could receive emails at that domain, but not send. It’s possible that the situation has changed and that now you cannot receive @pm.me domains for free anymore, which to me, would be enshittification, even though I pay for Proton Mail Plus and don’t have that issue.

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I’m in between but these days, I’d say I’m probably somewhat pessimistic.

I know. I was simply saying that If companies think it’s ok to think like that, why shouldn’t heir employees have the same expectations when it comes to their salary? Especially if the profits keep growing. People across the world in various political spaces are starting to have to make that connection.

I’m not sure about that. So many services are getting worse, and one could argue were never good in the first place. I am specifically thinking here of all the gig companies that have destroyed economies (Uber, AirBnB, Deliveroo, etc…)

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. I don’t think things have to become terrible to qualify as enshittification. I hate the fact that my bank won’t let me make any transaction on my phone unless I share my location.

To be clear, I was never tricked into paying yearly when when I expected to pay monthly. I realized it at the last minute when it was time to check out. I still think it’s wrong. Why not do the same for homes? Instead of showing the price of a house in the marking, only show the average monthly price of the mortgage?