Lol this has gotta be one of the most broad discussion thread I’ve seen in a while. Not even sure what the main point is after all this debate..
I think its just enough to inform people about this factual incident, that the cofounder donated to a certain party, and let the end users decide on their own.
Yes. This is currently true for most countries, including the US. In Denmark, the stats i linked show that immigrants are 2.5 times more highly convicted of violent crimes compared to native population.
While in my ideal world there will be no nation states, as it currently stands, you can’t seclude ill behaving native citizens. Nation states for sure have preexisting liabilities. It’s just that we, as a society, are forced to bear with it, because they’re citizens. But we must not tolerate migrants; they are outsiders, both by the standards of statist nation-states and by the standards of society.
To me, the real relevant element is assimilation and their overall fit to the society. It’s always up to a society to decide who they welcome or not. You can’t just force aliens on a society, people must have their agency.
It’s complicated because most countries, except for Scandinavian countries, hide their statistics. I’m sure you’re aware of the “statistics are racist” rhetoric.
No. You haven’t even read it.
“Ok GPT 2.5 flash no reasoning mode come up with an excuse without reading the document i think it’s in Swedish”? 
403 ERROR
The request could not be satisfied.
Please elaborate what “failure of humanity” made you entirely dismiss the statistics i’ve provided without even attempting to address it.
It was Denmark. Almost like someone is willing to defend open borders policies in any country without no matter what 
That is precisely the key problem. The social constructivism of nation-states is utterly tyrannical toward the native population. You have objective facts before you that reflect the current reality of Danish society, yet you still talk about an economic miracle that is about to happen as soon as migrants are better “assimilated” without even attempting to address the objective reality of today. And what that assimilation might mean at this point? What else do they need to at the very least bounce back to a single number net negative digits? Why do we, as a society have to bear such enormous liability? Why can’t society just stop funding this failed venture, as if it were just another unsuccessful government project?
Alternatively, the government could stop playing with fire and resolve the current set of problems by putting an end to cheap immigration and prioritizing the “assimilation” of the native poor population. You’re going out of your way to defend the failed policy.
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This is actually not manipulative and is exactly how capitalism works. People who have more money have more power, full stop. If you give money to someone who you disagree with, they can then do more things you disagree with with that money. (Example: If Elon Musk had no money because people stopped giving it to him, then he wouldn’t have the power to go around the world buying influence and destroying democracy.) Yes, this is true for all people, organizations, and corporations. Smart business owners keep their mouths shut when they hold deeply unpopular, bigoted views. Daniel… apparently not very smart in this regard, and now people will make the choices they want to make regarding Mullvad.
Nothing should be changed on the VPNs page, this does not affect their technical viability and nothing has indicated that Mullvad’s product has gotten worse.
We should not detail random dramas about every company on the recommendations page.
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Are you actually disputing that immigrants are more likely to be criminals in Sweden? This is public knowledge here, and I’m genuinely surprised you are questioning it:
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Before this thread, I didn’t have a clear stance on this issue, but I’ve enjoyed the way the libertarians are conducting the discussion here.
This thread has got me thinking critically. I’ve got a question: how can the police be biased against migrants in cases of violent crime? I mean, how deep would the police conspiracy have to be for them to find evidence pointing to a white perpetrator and then close the case? How might police racism manifest itself in murder investigations?
Overall, I really didn’t expect to see such well-reasoned arguments, even if they came from only one side, but i enjoyed reading it.
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I don’t want to speak on what I know little about (Swedish internal politics in this case), but the NSDAP was not leftist, and certainly not socialist.
Hitler stated while on trial for his role in the Beer Hall Putsch in February 1924 that “I have resolved to be the destroyer of Marxism”,[14] a statement which he later applied to those opposed to the Nazi Party in 1926, claiming “They tried to paralyze the one party that would have been able to give opposition to this Red pest.”
There’s a lot to reply to here, so I hope you’ll indulge my quoting many specific excerpts of yours.
To me, the real relevant element is assimilation and their overall fit to the society. It’s always up to a society to decide who they welcome or not. You can’t just force aliens on a society, people must have their agency.
(emphasis mine) I didn’t suggest that’s what should be done, and unless Sweden is no longer a democracy, it’s not what is happening.
It’s complicated because most countries, except for Scandinavian countries, hide their statistics. I’m sure you’re aware of the “statistics are racist” rhetoric.
I am probably not going to just believe this on just your word here, though I appreciate the effect that poor statistical tracking can have on discussions like this.
No. You haven’t even read it.
I unfortunately did, as I am finding a lot of people think the way you do about immigration, and it worries me. I put about an hour and half worth of effort into that post, including reading (and translating if necessary) the studies I linked to.
“Ok GPT 2.5 flash no reasoning mode come up with an excuse without reading the document i think it’s in Swedish”?
I do not, never will, and will never condone anyone using an LLM as anything other than an absolute last resort. Like I said, I put significant effort into the comment you are replying to, because this issue is important to me. Whether you believe me or not is up to you.
w.r.t. your 403 error, I am not sure. The link works for me, and I opted to use the same archiving site you provided your links from to ensure compatibility, so I am not terribly familiar with it. Here is a direct link to the study.
Please elaborate what “failure of humanity” made you entirely dismiss the statistics i’ve provided without even attempting to address it.
I directly addressed the statistics you provided. I did not, however, come to the same conclusion that you did after reading them.
It was Denmark. […]
That’s definitely my bad, as I don’t speak any of the native languages of the countries involved. The argument I outlined still applies, though. The data from Nordic countries is an outlier when it comes to how poor they are at integrating MENAPT immigrants.
[…] Almost like someone is willing to defend open borders policies in any country without no matter what
I don’t really understand what you mean by this. It doesn’t really seem relevant to what we were talking about, and it’s pretty dismissive.
That is precisely the key problem. The social constructivism of nation-states is utterly tyrannical toward the native population. You have objective facts before you that reflect the current reality of Danish society, yet you still talk about an economic miracle that is about to happen as soon as migrants are better “assimilated” without even attempting to address the objective reality of today. And what that assimilation might mean at this point? What else do they need to at the very least bounce back to a single number net negative digits? Why do we, as a society have to bear such enormous liability? Why can’t society just stop funding this failed venture, as if it were just another unsuccessful government project?
This is a lot, and I don’t really know much about the constructivism you’re talking about, so I can’t really agree or disagree. I also didn’t suggest that some economic miracle will arise from the immigration that Sweden (and other EU countries) have experienced, so I’m not really sure how to respond to that. I’ll just answer the questions, if that’s okay.
And what that assimilation might mean at this point?
This seems like it might be rhetorical, but I’ll just say: that isn’t really for me to decide. Immigrant integration looks different everywhere. The way immigrants integrate in Texas vs California vs North Dakota (3 US states) is completely unique. So I can’t really answer that, it’s up to each community.
Why do we, as a society have to bear such enormous liability?
You definitely don’t. Sweden or Denmark (or wherever) can totally and rightfully decide to do immigration in whatever way the populous decides. I pointed out that by totally cutting off immigration from specific (in this case, MENAPT) countries, there are downsides, and it may be a band-aid to a more systemic issue when it comes to how Nordic countries integrate non-Western immigrants. But, it’s a democracy, so it’s up to the people to decide.
Why can’t society just stop funding this failed venture, as if it were just another unsuccessful government project?
I don’t know, I’m not really involved enough in Swedish or Danish politics to be able to explain why the countries continue to do immigration the way they are. I am beginning to see that it’s causing you significant stress, so I’m at least sorry for that, and as an American I deeply resonate with the frustration of watching your government seemingly waste taxpayer dollars for no sensible reason at all on shit you adamantly do not support.
Alternatively, the government could stop playing with fire and resolve the current set of problems by putting an end to cheap immigration and prioritizing the “assimilation” of the native poor population. You’re going out of your way to defend the failed policy.
The government could, but from what I understand of most EU democracies, it would require significant will from the populous to make the kind of change you’re talking about. Until that widespread will exists, it’s hard to imagine it happening.
w.r.t. me defending the failed policy: As an American, I see immigration as a deeply meaningful part of our democracy (such as it is these days). Our country quite literally would not exist—and certainly would not be as prosperous as it has been historically—without the dedicated labor of immigrants from all over the world. I see it as one of our greatest strengths, and I wish we had treated them better throughout the centuries.
To clarify, I am not trying to suggest that it should be the exact same for Sweden, but instead to provide an alternative PoV on immigration. It may be that Nordic countries will never be able to successfully integrate MENAPT immigrants. It may also be that Nordic countries are just not set up to integrate them, and it could do better in the future. That would have benefits. It isn’t up to me (as an American citizen) to decide whether that’s the path those countries should go down, but I do feel uniquely aware of the huge, HUGE benefits that immigrants of all sorts can bring to a country and its communities.
I hope that helps you understand where I’m coming from. Thanks for staying engaged in this discussion, as I think that even if we can’t agree, others will find value in following our discussion.
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I made a very (very) long response to that in the comment at this link. But, to summarize my thinking: whether it is true that MENAPT immigrants commit more crime than other (Western) immigrants or natural-born citizens in Nordic countries, that is not the case for every (or it seems most) countries. It seems, to me, that Nordic countries are potentially just very poor at integrating non-Western immigrants. For instance, in America, our immigrant crime rate is roughly half that of natural-born citizens. So, there’s significant variance among countries w.r.t. this, and I am not so hasty to blame the immigrants for what could be a (somewhat narrow) systemic failure of a government.
I hope that helps.
IMO having a section on the page indicating controversies like this would be useful. Given two relatively equal recommendations from a technical perspective, if I saw that choice A (or the owner) funded something I despised while choice B did not, I would certainly pick choice B.
I don’t think it’ll happen, but it’d be useful.
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It is difficult for foreigners to understand how important the freedom of the individual is to Swedes, but I will give an example.
During the pandemic, there was no lockdown, no mask requirements, no closed schools, shops or gyms, no mandatory vaccinations, and so on…
Recommendations were given, but it was up to each one to decide how to do it.
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This thread is silly. The words fascist and Nazi get devalued when used so quickly and in such broad terms. Individual cases or events may warrant such language but to extrapolate that to everyone connected, in such an over the top way, screams of leftist woke cancel culture.
I think Mullvad are great and look forward to continuing to use their services for many years.
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I wonder when we’ll be seeing the drewdevault blog post.
Maybe in America. It’s very far from the situation in Europe, particularly for MENA immigrants.
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Im considering joining Mullvard.
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This is the situation in Spain. People don’t have money to pay for housing or rent.
Hii, sorry guys. I’m not too familiar with the discussions in this thread, and I’d consider myself a beginner when it comes to the privacy ecosystem, so I’m a bit confused.
Based on what I’ve seen, does this donation actually have anything to do with Mullvad itself? Does it mean Mullvad has been compromised, or that it’s going down a path where it’s likely or even guaranteed to be compromised? I’m just trying to understand the connection.
i ask cause It’s kind of crazy to me because Mullvad has always been the VPN I’ve heard people defend to the death. People have always spoken so highly of it, so it’s surprising to see this.
I guess what I’m trying to understand is: are people leaving because they genuinely believe Mullvad is going to be compromised, or is this mostly about people’s personal political views? From a technical standpoint, should I actually be concerned about using Mullvad, or is this more of a personal or political decision for each individual?
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At this point, it is a political decision. As you can not use Mullvad without costs, your money goes also to this guy and to that party. You decide what you do on this matter.
As a personal opinion, it is not far fetched that providers like Mullvad could cooperate with such policies in the future and as their service is currently rather small and replacable (i.e. alternatives exist), one could decide to switch without big impact on your side (Proton and all its services are harder to replace, as a counter example).
I didn’t sign up here for political views or discussions, nor do I think the majority …
this is so lame …
and because I am a paying member …
everyone stuff it !
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Exactly, let the guy spend the money how he wants, when he keeps on delivering a great VPN-service.
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