DankPods to experienced Linux users: "...if you're not interested in helping newbies, then just don't engage."

Off Topic
1

I got intrigued by DankPods’ experience in Linux in one of his most recent videos:

On the 11:15 timestamp, he starts talking about his hard drive management on Linux, so we can ignore that, since that’s not what I want to talk about.

But later he mentions in 12:25 (in my personal interpretation) how advanced Linux users give unfriendly advice to newcomers, and how some users will treat you like you’re dumb, or that you need to know stuff before you get into Linux. It’s is such a dumb approach obviously because we should expect newcomers to not know anything more than flashing their OS to a pendrive and that’s it, unless some newcomers may have some technical knowledge; and also a good OS is that one that doesn’t require too much tinkering like he pointed out.

At least DP was lucky enough to have professional Linux friends that helped him out in his journey, but most people don’t have that type of friends, in fact it’s usually the completely opposite, so obviously people has to go to the World Wide Web to seek some advice.

And hey, we got Linux on the Steam Deck and other stuff that it’s doing great progress lately, so Linux is not the problem, but some unfriendly people is.

But in the other side of the spectrum, newcomers should truly understand that it’s a complete different OS and ecosystem, and that there’s going to be people unwilling to help them out. I say this because I saw some newcomers pretending to use their new Linux system like if it was Windows or MacOS, and that’s understandable because people want to step out from those OSes but some of them are not willing to sacrifice their comfort zone and get into the Linux learning curve, no matter how Windows-11-skinned their Linux installation is.

My conclusion is similar to DP’s, Linux is still not very user friendly and mature enough to make it mainstream at the moment, and there’s no much to do because in some cases there’ll be incompatible hardware or scenarios where there’s just nothing to do, and Linux newcomers aren’t gonna get into troubleshooting and potentially mess up their system running random Sudo commands.

But what do you think guys? For any Linux beginners here, did you guys had any problems asking for Linux help and advice online?

zf3kmiek2fxksjoj.jpg
zf3kmiek2fxksjoj.jpg1080×216 21.5 KB

My personal experience back when I got started on Linux in 2022 was a bit difficult, because I ran into a lot of issues even though I’m tench-savvy, but I still had to get some help out there because I wasn’t into Linux troubleshooting obviously, but sometimes I received useless feedback, like “knowing things beforehand” or “you have to use This and That OS” (kinda similar to what DP pointed out), some people are not even interested what a rolling release is; and sometimes I just had to figure out what was wrong by my own also looking for random articles on the Web, looking for a more DIYish approach, which is not the usual way of beginner troubleshooting, because beginners only want to use their PCs and that’s it. In my experience it wasn’t a very smooth transition from Win10. But I’m pretty sure things will improve over time looking on how Linux is slowly growing, but we have to be more united as a community as DP mentioned.

My experience with Linux has been good cuz it’s private and secure, but crappy because it’s confusing and no one wants to help you.

3 Likes
2

Linux community gets a bad, not-totally-unwarranted rap in this regard. But this is largely true for any dense technical subject. We all fondly remember that one condescending professor at university

Some folks just arent built to teach. Or interact with other humans. And the internet just tends to lend an equal megaphone to every random schmuck with a keyboard. Like me - who says Im qualified to say anything on this???

2 Likes
3

I have to admit the constant barrage of “just switch to linux” comments anytime there were questions about a Windows issue throughout my years on Reddit and, even sometimes, here made me want to hold onto Windows even more. The only other community that is comparable is people who use Jellyfin when they see anything regarding Plex.

I did eventually make the switch and have had a mostly positive experience getting help from other Linux users.

3 Likes
4

It’s a shame that some ‘new users’ appear to have had bad experiences with Linux and I do accept that ‘some’ beginners may feel that they are getting brushed off by ‘some’ experienced users ( across the wholeLinux community ..)

But my experience was different . I was an Ubuntu user for about 5 years ( and it’s only now I can talk about that ‘shame’ on this site having switched to Secureblue ). One of the reasons I picked Ubuntu was the large community of support . In the 5 years I used it I never had to ask a question because advanced users:

  • had answered many questions on free access forums over the years
  • wrote articles on Linux online that I could use as reference for things like removing Snaps
  • wrote and published free hardening guides such as Madaidans Linux Insecurities that beginners could ‘try’ step by step ..
  • gave free advice about Privacy on sites such as Privacy Guides and Techlore

Because of all that free expert advice , I learnt I was a Dumbass to be using Ubuntu ( yes , I am joking ) and most importantly have moved incrementally to where I want to be now as a content Linux user …

Hopefully the PG forum can be a positive place for beginners to ask questions without fear of condescending responses ..

Have a good day everybody

2 Likes
5

I don’t think there is one “Linux community” or “open source community” in this sense, different subcommunities are wildly different.

Some unfortunate interaction patterns I observe keep repeating:

  • Misunderstanding of roles and managing expectations. Expecting fellow users just shooting shit or the unpaid volunteer devs to act like a professional support help desk on duty.
  • Wrong context. New confused user starts spamming a dev chat instead of using the projects designated issue tracker. About a third-party unsupported flatpak installation. In the end, the issue turned out to be completely unrelated to either. Nobody’s happy. Kind of like complaining about the lack of service after crashing a potluck.
  • This needs to be read more by askers
  • This needs to be read more by answerers
  • XY problem adds frustration
  • Extractive mentality
  • Also there is just so much bad and lazy advice going around. “Just use X”.

The first two I think happen to some extent in many open non-hierarchical volunteery contexts of open cocreation. The last three happen in to some extent in any deeply technical context when new people come in and moreso the more fragmented it is.

So likely a lot of the friction is just inherent in what Linux is. We can improve by managing expectations and being more mindful in general on all sides.

Sure, people who took a biiit too much inspiration of Torvalds’ communication style have been around. But I think these days that’s very fringe and the wider community has grown up with a norm of acceptance of individuals while keep behavior in check. Code-of-conducts are probably a symptom of this.

But then again I don’t frequent Discord, where I guess a lot of new users end up.

but we have to be more united as a community as DP mentioned.

Hot take but I think almost the opposite: That some people just want to do things their way and that’s fine. Not everything has to cater to everyone. It’s a beautiful thing if many people do unite in helping out to onboard newcomers but it’s better to widely credit those who do than start expecting random enthusiasts in unrelated communities to start acting uniformly professionally (Many would just silently quit). I think it’s fine to not offer free coaching and educational services and that that doesn’t constitute gatekeeping.

And I think it goes both ways: We teach each other to fish and there’s an implicit expectation that others will teach after us. You don’t need to be an expert to report back what you learned and what your solution or failure was - and it might help so many others.

6

People gotta do drama content for views rather than spend the time asking an LLM how to get the basic things done or do a search on already existing questions. You can’t blame people being upset if the asker is not doing the bare minimum of effort.
We’re not asking them to flash a kernel, just make some search before posting yet another thread.

Plot twist as of why: lack of money.
Give some maintainer 50k$ monthly and they will polish the HELL out of the whole onboarding experience.
If that same person has no donations and does that on their free time, guess what? Yeah it’s suboptimal and a bit rough on the edges. :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:
Microsoft has some income to justify having squads of fulltime people working on it, hence why it’s more friendly. Always comes down to money.
People want something better? Invest into Linux rather than paying for Windows/MacOS, as simple as that.

Imagine bitching about volunteer work not being as good as an enterprise. :man_facepalming:t2:

Yes and yes.
Windows/Mac has the same issues tho. People just spend 10 years on either and get the knowledge by sweat and tears. Now, imagine putting the same amount of years into Linux? Boom, you know how it works and have no issues, matter of experience. :slight_smile:

I’m sure a kid that learns Linux from a young age will have the exact same hostile mindset and friction towards Windows/MacOS. It all comes down to where you do come from.

Great approach and mindset. Putting in the effort pays out as you can see.

You can buy a Linux-first laptop with a preinstalled distro on it and all the hardware that goes alongside, kinda what Framework does. Then you’ll have a super smooth experience out of the box.

Saying that Windows works flawlessly would be a lie tbh, people are just used to accept some bugs on Windows and not others on Linux to the point where they don’t even see them anymore. Again, exposition/experience.

What’s wrong with that statement?
Proprietary OS from a company that does not care and you asking for some help on how to gaff tape a leaking wood barrel, that will continue to break each week again, again and again.
People suggest switching to a metal barrel.

As stated above by slouchy, it’s not specific to Linux. People not willing to put in the effort are also tech-savvy new developers sometimes or plenty of other newcomers.
Laziness should not be a reason to call a community rude because it’s not served on a golden plate all the time.
Reading before criticizing should be the norm. Also, nowadays you can ask and LLM and it will be more of a “certainly lord, here is how to… :slight_smile:” rather than “bruh dude, RTFM” if hurt feelings is the main issue for newcomers here.

Not everybody has the patience to explain the same thing for the 50th time.
Been there for years as a helper, get’s very tiresome, quickly.

Yes. This is exactly how you should go.
Take some known path that is popular and you’ll find all of your issues.
Hell even Ubuntu answers might work elsewhere because sometimes often it’s not even related to the distro but more of a universal Linux thing to know.

If you pick a super niche topic, with old hardware and don’t search a little bit, then you will be sad/confused and upset yes.
At the same time, do Mac users start with a Hackintosh?
Do new drivers buy a dead car and fix the engine by themselves before touching any pedal?
Do people handwire and 3D print their first NAS?
No.
Take the beaten path, make your life easier. Common sense.
Sure, some experienced people might recommend a DIY hardcore enthusiast path but hey, bad recommendations exist everywhere.

Very good bulleted list points that I agree 100% with.

TLDR is

I am too lazy to do a bit of work/research by myself and don’t want to put in the time

but it is just easier to take the path of

hehe ecsdee, Linux SUCKS with their rude beardy dudes lolol

one is easier and resonates more with people, especially on social platforms (more drama/rage-clickbait).

I’d finish by saying that I do not know DP’s channel but I don’t feel like it’s any good content. It looks like it is about complaining about things that are hard by nature (like proper backups) and recommending people to just lock themselves into a company/product?
Freedom is hard and takes effort/time.
Bitching about it and saying that the solution is just to throw money at the problem is probably not the way to go.

Yet it works because of the audience/short attention span and people preferring the easy and painless path.
I guess this is why AI is so popular as of lately: targets the same audience. :sweat_smile:

3 Likes
7

Nothing wrong with it in a vacuum but its extremely annoying when its not actually relevant to the topic. You can find multiple threads on this forum alone where a user is asking for Windows specific advice and people decide thats the proper response.

1 Like
8

Sometimes it’s just the easiest solution.
Big leap (because change of OS) but it’s just better to opt out from the constant BS and weekly breaking changes shoved into your face.

An example would be:

how do I keep my privacy in check and opt out from Apple’s telemetry?! they keep resetting the settings on each update, they add opt-in stuff and they bypass my DNS with leaks

use GrapheneOS with a Pixel

Similar situation here. Sometimes it’s not worth the effort/battle to try to undo something and just easier to start fresh. Especially given the headache and disrespect that the people are subject to by Microsoft not giving a damn.

1 Like
9

It almost feels like you are being intentionally obtuse about the situation.

If a user is requesting help on hardening windows, for example, it is typically not appropriate to come in and just say “switch to linux”. This is not a new issue or complaint about linux users.

If you feel this way about a users situation, it is more appropriate to not reply then to reply with a non sequitor

10

If the question is

how do I achieve X with Y, I struggle

and the answer is

achieve X by switching to Y

what’s the problem?

This forum is the perfect example of this mindset tbh: if a FOSS tool gets crappy because of being bought, proprietary or just slow, everybody will recommend an alternative.
It’s “oh it’s proprietary and awful, but maybe you could look into the stacktrace, the DNS logs and kinda block it phoning home and…and…”
VS
“switch to this other app that is FOSS and available on Github”.

I really don’t see why a different tool is not a viable solution in the case of Windows.

This question for example. Should I have recommended to reverse engineer and unsolder the initial Meural device while maybe be brought to court because of their IP and stuff?
Or just use something different?
Same for Windows/Linux.

Same for TeamSpeak for example: just makes more sense to use something different because the initial tool just doesn’t fit the job.
Same for Windows, it just does a poor job out of the job nowadays.
Microsoft cannot even manage to get their sh*t together and have basic features working well, like Start menu button, basic updates and so much more basic features.
Regressions are real and worse by the deal while having the AI nonsense shoved into your face.

Can get a bit political but people should just say “no” at some point and expect better, without settling with dirty hacks. Honestly, the amount of time you’ll spend researching, tinkering and battling against Microsoft is just time you could invest giving a try to Linux.
Also, even if you do find a trick it will just be temporary and Microsoft can pull the rug anytime.
Linux doesn’t own your system with a remote dead switch.

I understand that “use Linux” is not the solution to how “how to fix my Windows” but it is still a viable solution like any other tool.
I personally spent a lot of time fighting against Notion and their BS, sluggish UI, poor export nonsense formats, invasive AI. The solution to this is not to try to find fixes inside of Notion.
Solution is to switch to Obsidian. Works perfectly once past the learning curve/small difference.

Plot twist: the other tool is sometimes not just equivalently better, but has other new features that the other one never cared implementing. So it’s not an equivalent, it might be an upgrade.

1 Like
11

Because its not an XY issue.

For example, hardening Windows is a direct request for help with a specific task. An XY problem involves asking about a solution (Y) without addressing the original issue (X).

There are ways to improve a users security and privacy regardless if they use Linux. Making it seem like these requests don’t have a solution is nonsensical.

Lets not pretend like these requests are asking to make Windows or whatever non Linux OS “the most secure / private thing ever” users are just asking to help improve on their current situation. Which is typically possible without being virtue signalled about how great Linux is or why there cant possibly be another solution.

Its especially aggrevating on PG as everyone already knows Linux is reccomended and Windows is not. So to offer that as a suggestion is to basically provide no suggestion at all.

12

People are not asking on how to disable feature X or Y, but how to get Windows to get out of their way and have safe defaults with low effort that are persisted and not reset over time.
They’d like to just use their OS and get their job/hobbies done.

Nobody loves dealing with Cortana (or whatever their latest AI thingy), nobody asked for it in the first place.

If a company doesn’t care and just YOLOs it by being in the headlines every week, maybe there is no point gaff taping the leaking boat.
False safe of security is also not helping the situation.
Changing a registry key won’t make Windows a fortress, it is poorly designed at its core and one of the most vulnerable to 0-days given its popularity.

Hence, going from 10% secure to 11% is just a waste of time. It needs to be a bump up to 90%+ to be decent enough of a change worth the effort.
Just like buying an antivirus makes you feel safer, while not adding actual security at its core.

That’s why I never chime in on Windows questions: I don’t care nor know the latest nonsense situation there. Hence nothing constructive to suggest and decide to avoid it altogether.

And yes, just like GOS is the simple best solution, same is Linux.
It hurts and people hate that conclusion sometimes, but it is just the reality of things if being objective.

1 Like
13

I guess we have to agree to disagree. To me, you are providing an answer to a question thats not being asked.

If I am having issues or need help with Windows, providing an answer that is basically “don’t use it” does not help and is not actually relevant. It seems like you see that situation differently.

Yeah and GOS users receive the same complaints. Even when its clearly stated someone does not want to use GOS, GOS users feel compelled to offer that as the solution.

1 Like
14

It is a viable solution sometimes.
I used to help developers with their code issues where they were saying

how do I use this tool, it’s complex and hard

the answer was sometimes

you don’t need all of this, use this simpler approach, no need for a 3rd party when it’s baked into the Web platform

You can say no to it, it’s fine.
But there is no reason to be angry at a proposition of a total different alternative.
Worth a shot. If you never propose it, people might not know it even exists.

If the OP doesn’t want the alternative tool, you can drop pushing the alternative.
Respect should go both ways and not force it over the other.

15

Most reasoned response about this I have read yet.

I guess maybe I need to look at myself as to why it rubs me the wrong way. I still believe the majority of the time that the solution is offered is out of laziness and not because switching to Linux is actually the most reasonable solution to most of the requests made.

1 Like
16

I guess some people are very annoying with that or their famous

I use arch, btw[1]

Who says it and how they say it is usually what leaves a good or bad impression.
Sometimes it’s just kids being edgy or grumpy old hobbyists like me haha. :joy:

DankPods for example has a friend to help them.
There is no special difference between a stranger online or a friend in person: it’s just a matter of tone and mind-openness, because the solution to a given Linux problem is probably the same in both cases haha.

Internet doesn’t help it. In-person Linux events/meetups don’t go bad, it’s usually wholesome and friendly.
But hiding behind a screen is just fuel for being mean, entice rage and cult behavior.

Also, Linux does have rough edges and it is always prone to frustration and anger when you’re in a pickle, struggling makes it even less bearable. This leads people’s patience to run low in general.
Been there myself: willing to throw my computer by the window because of things not working out well.
Given enough friction, you end up going back to the comfy Windows. Until you realize that Windows is more friction than Linux at some point.

PS: don’t get me wrong btw, I still dislike Linux myself quite a lot when it comes down to specific topics like sound/video recording. It really doesn’t work well enough and is a huge pain with some decent hardware sometimes, needing you to go SUPER deep on a topic as basic as recording your voice properly.

Linux is very good at specific things but not perfect. No OS is perfect, it’s always a pros/cons.
I’ve been on all the main 3 at this point and understand everybody’s POV, running Linux + MacOS myself currently (given different needs during the day).

  1. I hate when cringe bros are saying that myself, I never saw what there is to brag about anyway ↩︎