I mean, that’s not Proton’s fault. Not sure what else they can do. Cash and XMR through PS is still possible and those should be enough for folks to use for anonymous payment for their accounts.
Also, don’t think there is any evidence of Proton linking Gift Card purchases to redemption of the same to any account so that’s another way.
Absolutely, I just thought it was worth pointing out as the payment privacy situation in a lot of Europe is worse than in Swiss and they might not realise that.
Not sure if you are saying otherwise but Proton does retain the redeemed gift card code and associates it to your account via the invoice. The gift card code appears in plain text on the pdf.
From this you would then have the purchaser information from when the code was generated and sent to the purchaser and then you have the redeemed value associated with the account. I would prefer a more ephemeral approach.
I have asked Proton support to delete these records associated with my account and they were not willing to.
Yeah me too.
Are we sure Proton is storing this info and that it can indeed be correlated if someone wanted to?
I appreciate the apology, because indeed, it was very confusing.
Thank you for the clarification. I’m glad to know it was not deliberate, because the Proxy Store is a great champion of privacy that allows many people to pay for various privacy services anonymously. They are not your typical reseller, which is why I hope more privacy services support them and that more privacy-friendly resellers like them emerge across the world.
This is a step in the right direction but I am still a little confused, as it’s unclear if this solves all the issues I raised regarding these vouchers. I would appreciate some clarifications with answers to the following questions.
VOUCHERS VS. CREDIT
Do Proton vouchers in the Proxy Store now work like credit, i.e., the same way Proton gift cards do?
Because if they don’t, a lot of Proton users are still left out.
As I mentioned in my original post, many Proton users have lifetime discounts. They may pay €12/year for Proton Pass or are on a discounted 2-year plan for Proton Mail Plus.
Can people who are on lifetime discounts renew their subscriptions with a Proton voucher from the Proxy Store?
This would mean that they would not lose their lifetime discounts.
If it’s not possible, then the problem is not solved.
And if it is possible, you should also appreciate that people who are on lifetime discounts may not wish or be able to afford paying for a voucher that costs 2 to 5 times the price of their subscription. This is why gift cards in smaller amounts, like the ones you have for $20, are extremely useful.
You specifically mentioned people whose subscriptions are paid for via vouchers and who are renewing those subscriptions with another voucher.
What about people who have never bought a voucher and who have ongoing subscriptions that are paid for with a credit card? Can they redeem a voucher to renew their subscription?
Many people who pay for their Proton subscription via KYC methods would like to change that.
STACKED SUBSCRIPTIONS VS. CREDIT
You mentioned stacked subscription, but it is unclear if we have the same understanding of what it means.
Please confirm if we do.
To my knowledge, a stacked subscription is when you extend your subscription in advance. So if you have an ongoing one-year subscription that is about to expire, and you pay for three 12-month vouchers (3 x 12), you extend your subscription by 3 years in advance. This means your subscription expires in 3 years, and nothing will change that.
It is my understanding that many services do not allow stacked subscriptions because they don’t want their users to extend their subscriptions in advance, in case they decide to increase their price.
This is where credit comes in.
Some services, like Tuta, won’t allow stacked subscriptions for the same service. Meaning they won’t let you pay 3 x €36 to extend your Revolutionary Tuta Mail subscription by 3 years in advance. However, they will allow you to buy 3 x €36 of credit and add it to your account.
If their yearly price never changes during that period (€36/year), you are covered for the next 3 years, and your subscription will be automatically renewed. But if they do decide to increase the price to, say, €40/year, you will have to top up before the end of your 2nd year because you won’t have enough credit to automatically renew your subscription for a 3rd time.
Which scenario do Proton vouchers in the Proxy Store fit?
Yes, the value is visible on the pdf invoice that is stored associated with the account on Proton’s account page. Who else would be storing it?
Account → Subscription → Invoices → View/Download
I know two things:
It does not seem like it would be a stretch that these two events could be correlated based on some unique key. (The gift card code).
Obviously #2 is required, but if the code was ephemeral and was not retained with the account, then this would break the chain.
I’ve explained why your direct cash payments are not anonymous, and I am sure that you understand. By requiring my username, I am no longer anonymous to you. And as I explained, other privacy services have found a way to not require usernames for cash payments. Please follow their model.
The issue isn’t just about a Proton agent knowing who I am. It’s also about Proton agents seeing my profile. I’ve explained how customer support agents seeing your profile can lead to privacy invasions. It happens every day. See ATM vs bank teller analogy.
I did not know about that.
Is this information that you advertise and that most people know about?
To which specific countries is this available in the world?
Because if it’s only a select few, that leaves a lot of people out, if not the majority.
Case in point:
The easiest way for Proton to make anonymous payments widely accessible would be to allow gift cards on the Proxy Store and allow direct cash payments for gift cards, because your current direct cash payments are not anonymous.
According to @CarefMouse there is evidence.
But even if there wasn’t any evidence of Proton tracing gift card payments it wouldn’t matter. The simple fact that it’s possible is evidence enough, which is why it’s misleading to call it anonymous, and more than reasonable to ask that Proton make gift cards purchasable directly with cash and sell them on the Proxy Store.
When you buy a Proton voucher from the Proxy Store and redeem it to your account, Proton knows that you bought your voucher from the Proxy Store. This is the same for every privacy service on the Proxy Store. Proton doesn’t know who you are, but they know you got it from the Proxy Store.
If you buy a Proton voucher in the Proxy Store and you pay via bank transfer, which is an option, the Proxy Store knows who you are. But thankfully, the Proxy store accepts anonymous methods of payments like cash (no username) and Monero.
As I mentioned in my original post, Proton’s gift cards are exclusively sold by Proton in their store. And you can only buy them with credit/debit card, PayPal, and traceable cryptocurrencies (no Monero). That means none of these methods are anonymous and could be traced to your account.
Thanks for the insight.
What does Proton know about you that makes you say you are not anonymous to Proton? Your username? Is that it?
How does Proton knowing your username make you not anonymous when literally no other information about you is available or visible to them?
This is like saying because you make an account here on the forum and use the name you use, you are not anonymous to PG. Every entity will know your name at the very least. Whatever the name may be.
I’m honestly getting tired of you claiming cash payments is not anonymous via a mixed up mindset you have about anonymity. So, might as well clarify what your definition and threshold for anonymity is.
The way I think about it is that anonymous means you can’t be distinguished from other people, while pseudonymous means you have a consistent identity that’s separate from your legal or day to day identity. Therefore we are indeed not anonymous because this is not like 4chan where everyone’s username says anon.
If you look in a dictionary, some definitions say something like like “not named” or “unknown authorship” for anonymous, which does not apply to us.
Practically, I typically use anonymous to refer to both, as do most people I think, as most are only concerned about their “real life” identity being kept private. Pseudonymous payments will be good enough for this group, but some people may wish for it to be fully anonymous since there can be identifying information with the cash (eg return address).
For the time being, I think the voucher is a good solution regardless of if you can use a grandfathered in discount. Proton can’t roll out every feature at the same time.
The fact that you’re asking me this means that you have not read my post or any of my replies to comments where I give specific examples of what the issue is. I keep having to repeat myself because you don’t seem to want to read.
No, that is not it.
When a Proton agent receives your username, they can see many details about your profile.
They can see what type of account you have (free or paid)
They can see what services you are subscribed to (Proton Unlimited? Proton Pass Plus?)
They can see when you created your account.
They can see your billing cycle.
They can see which country your last payment was from.
They can see how many aliases you have and what websites they are for.
They can see many things about how you use your account.
Whether Proton agents choose to look or not is completely irrelevant. The point is, they have the power to do so the moment you hand over your username. I don’t want that. I do not want to draw the attention of a Proton agent to my account when I make a payment.
When I make a credit card payment to renew my subscription no Proton agent is aware of it.
I want it to be the same when I make a cash payment.
I have shared in multiple comments that I have personally experienced customer service agents of various services making unwarranted observations about my account with them, and it had nothing to do with the reason why I contacted them.
I have also had customer agents make changes to my account without my consent after I gave them my info. This has happened to me, and it has happened to friends of mine.
It’s because of these experiences that I don’t want to draw unnecessary human attention to my account.
Proton doesn’t need to require usernames to accept cash payments, so they should stop doing so to protect users’ privacy because their current system is not anonymous.
You don’t seem to get it.
The PG staff and community may not know your real name or where you are from. But anyone who looks at your profile and goes through your posts and comments will know what your specific interests are. Patterns will emerge.
When you generate data, as we all do, patterns will always emerge. This is the case for any PG user who makes posts and comments, and even those who only express themselves through emojis.
I don’t know if you’ve ever visited the subreddit r/AmITheAasshole but many Redditors who have made posts there have been exposed for having gaps in their story or how they presented themselves.
You know how they were exposed?
Someone looked at their profile, went through their post and comment history, and revealed through screenshots that OP is a liar, or a racist, or a sexist, or a bully, etc…
Nobody knew OP’s real name. Just their username.
I don’t understand why people keep equating Privacy and Anonymity.
PRIVACY = People can’t see what you say
ANONYMITY = People don’t know who you are
They are not the same thing.
No one is equating privacy and anonymity, even though there is an overlap between the two.
I understand that email can never be 100% private. Proton has made claims about some of their payment options being anonymous which are not true. I am simply pointing it out, and ask that they offer anonymous payments because it is 100% within their power to do that.
Allowing anonymous payments by not requiring usernames for cash payments doesn’t guarantee that a Proton user can never be identified, but it adds an important layer of protection and privacy. Especially when you consider that KYC payment methods are one of the most common ways to identify users regardless of what their username is.