Proton doesn't really support anonymous payments. Let's demand that they do

[PurpleDime]

@trilobyte

I feel you are being harsh with them here as the cash payments will be a good solution for most of the minority that wants anonymous payments, given that cash doesn’t require they keep records like with credit cards.

DEFAULTS MATTER

I disagree. I have mentioned that other privacy companies accept direct cash payments with no username requirements. If we can agree that that type of implementation is better and more private, why can’t Proton follow it?

Proton is the biggest and most well-known privacy company. I have little doubt that if the situation were reversed, if they had set the better standard currently championed by smaller privacy companies, and the latter followed Proton’s current weaker model, more people would agree with me and call out the other companies.

Last week, @anon25722375 shared a fascinating 3-hour interview of Andy Yen, Proton’s CEO, who was a guest on a German podcast. Yesterday, I watched it in full and took lots of notes, and I plan to fully articulate my thoughts about it soon. However, I’ll share some of them now since they are relevant to the topic.

In the interview, Andy Yen was asked about Telegram, WhatsApp, and Google. As he was talking about Telegram, two words kept popping into my head, and to my surprise, Andy Yen later uttered them. Those words are: defaults matter.

Millions of people use privacy services for reasons that are completely unrelated to privacy, and yet, despite that, without knowing it, they are still protected. Apple has some privacy virtues that protect millions of users by default. Privacy is not the primary reason people use Apple products and services, if it is a reason at all, and yet, they have some protection because of those defaults. Proton can do better with their cash payment system. Their default is not anonymous.

@trilobyte

It’s someone’s choice to make a personally identifying username

@Treant

[…] it is entirely user-error if John Smith is paying cash for their john.smith@protonme account and is expecting to not be identifiable. That is a silly thing to blame proton for, in my opinion. It’s easy to set up an entirely separate 2nd proton account with no identification in the account name and pay cash for that membership if it is something you are concerned about.

A Proton subscriber shouldn’t have to pay for a 2nd account for privacy. Especially when you get 10 email addresses with Proton Mail Plus and 15 with Proton Unlimited. Right now, a free Proton user has more privacy than a paying Proton user. That is not acceptable. It’s not acceptable that in order to enjoy all of Proton Mail’s features, I have no choice but to compromise my privacy.

@trilobyte

but all Proton will know is that you sent cash to it.

@anon96036341

I believe they already have. Cash payments as they currently do.

@shadowwwind

Nothing in a letter with cash connects the username with anything else about you. Proton isn’t getting any connection they don’t already know.

That is not true. Regardless of if your username is your real name or not, a human person (Proton agent) is manually adding the credit to your profile. That means they can see your profile. And they don’t just see that you’re adding cash to it. They see way more.

What people seem to fail to understand is that there is a difference between Proton, the company, as in, its computer system that registers payments, and Proton employees, who are real people, doing the same thing.

Being known by Proton’s computer system and being known by a Proton employee are not equivalent. With the former, I still have some measure of privacy because I am hiding in plain sight amongst millions of other users. With the latter, I am drawing the attention of a real person specifically to MY account.

ATM vs BANK TELLER ANALOGY

@PurpleDime

When I deposit $100 in my bank account via an ATM, the bank’s computer system knows that a deposit was made into my account. But no bank employee knows. No bank employee’s attention has been drawn to my account or my profile. I am in an ocean of millions of bank customers, hiding in plain sight.

This is how cash payments work for many other privacy services.

On the flip side, when I physically go to the bank to deposit $100 into my account, I have to speak to a teller, and hence I am drawing a bank employee’s attention to my account. In fact, I have to present my ID to prove I am the owner of said account.

Can you see how my privacy is being compromised?

This is how Proton cash payments work, and I don’t want that.

@PurpleDime

[… ]the bank teller, who is a real person, is aware that I, Jordan Smith, made a payment that day.

And when the teller performs this transaction for me, they can see my bank profile. Maybe they see that I received $20 000 from abroad and want to ask me about it. Maybe they see that they haven’t verified my address in 5 years and want to confirm it’s still the same. Maybe they see that I have $100 000 sitting in my savings account and am not making much profit from it, and they want to advise me on how to invest it. I don’t care. That is not why I came to the bank and I don’t want them snooping around.

It’s exactly the same with Proton’s cash payments.