Some apps allow you to purchase them outside the Play Store. For example, you can buy a key for Cryptomator on their site, download the app from F-Droid, and use the key there. So unless the app doesn’t have any other ways to pay for it, then this is not an issue.
You can download the Aurora Store, login with your account, and download paid apps. This is a lot better than connecting your Google account to your phone.
You can create an anonymous Google account, which I would personally use on the Aurora Store, but you can also login with it on your phone (meanwhile, it’s impossible to create an anonymous Apple ID).
Regarding you having to use Google Drive, you can use Google Drive in a browser, and you can use an anonymous Google account for it too.
Buying a new phone or using an unused one that you already own in a car seems like a good solution to me. It would provide extra compartmentalisation, which is good.
Many apps have no other way to pay for them, specifically for in-app purchases.
(A) Typical, normal users, the ones considering stock Android vs iOS, are not going to be doing these things.
(B) Even for others, like me, this is not a great solution. Once I input my payment information to my Google account it is no longer anonymous. Yes, I tried Privacy.com. They closed my account after a month with no reason given after I made a total of one purchase from Steam.
I know, I use it through a browser when I can. The point was that nearly every typical, normal user will install and log into at least one Google app on their device. Over 95% of my contact list is Gmail addresses, for god’s sake! People are extremely unlikely to start a new, anonymous Google account and never log into a single Google app. So your hypothetical set-up here doesn’t make a meaningful difference.
That’s great that that seems like a good solution to you, but it isn’t for me - or, I would guess, for 99% of users.
For example: if someone calls on the primary phone then it’s no longer hands-free. In my jurisdiction picking up the phone to answer it while driving is against the law. I have to use a bluetooth hands-free device, but I can’t do that if my car is connected to a different phone.
This isn’t a situation I can safely manage as I drive a car.
I used a deGoogled phone for years. I would go back in a heartbeat if they supported Android Auto. Everything else (including the app issues I listed above) I can work around. I actually prefer Android to iOS!
Regardless - you seem to be ignoring the larger point to argue specific edge cases here. Stock android and iOS are roughly equivalent, in terms of privacy, for normal users. The bigger factor (if one isn’t going to use Graphene) is using privacy respecting services.
Let’s face it, typical, normal users don’t care about privacy. For those who do, I don’t see why they wouldn’t do these things; it’s not difficult.
Privacy.com isn’t the only option. I would also look into why your account was closed.
Why are we talking about typical, normal users? We aren’t typical, normal users; we are privacy-conscious users. It’s irrelevent what typical, normal users do and would do.
Anyway, for example, I have to use Facebook Messenger even though it’s bad for privacy. You have to use an iPhone even though it’s bad for privacy. Life is life; everyone can’t be perfect, and some sacrifices have to be made.
What’s important is to be aware of the privacy issues of using Facebook Messenger (in my case) and iOS (in your case) and try to do our best. The problem I see with most iOS users is that instead of understanding the privacy issues of iOS and accepting them, they go to the next level of copium and call iOS private, even though it’s far from that.
Really, you cannot create an anonymous account. It is not anonymous in practice. Even if you use a VPN, you need to make the first connection before downloading the app. Besides, you have to trust the operating system for not bypassing the VPN during the registration. For Apple ID, you can also perfectly use burner phone, though the collection of IP address and email is subject to the similar risks posed by registration on Android.
Being able to sideload apps is one thing, but it is not only criteria for privacy. What about the massive collection of data by Android and Google services. In practice, you cannot use your android without Google Play Store and Services. If somebody is willing to go that way, s/he will use DivestOS and grapheneOS anyway.
For an ordinary person, it is not very possible. If we are talking about Chinese surveillance, then you have bigger problems than sideloading an app. Actually, not using common apps and using a VPN and other stuff will make you an outlier. That is comparing with apples and oranges. Then, it really comes down to your threat model.
After Digital Market Acts, Apple will open its system to third-party apps soon. So, it will also be irrelevant in near future.
That said, claiming that stock android is better than iOS just because of an Apple account and sideloading is a big exaggeration.
Edit: Italic text and link added for clarification about anonymous registration.
The point is that saying “well stock Android might be more private if someone uses their phone in this very specific way” is meaningless. Even among privacy hobbyists like us we all use our devices differently, to say nothing of everyone else. For most people (including most people on PG) the privacy of stock Android vs iOS is extremely similar.
There is research now and then claiming that iOS collects less data, and it does restrict background activity more, so that’s why I ranked it one centimeter above stock Android. But Android’s permissions structure has improved enough in the past few years that I know they’re probably essentially equivalent at this point.
Knowing that Graphene wasn’t an option for me at the moment I went with an iOS device this go-round because (a) the newest Pixels are too big (b) I wanted to feed Google a bit less data for a few years and (c) I wanted to try something different. That’s it.
Stock iOS gives you more meaningful control over your privacy than stock Android on a pixel phone (and on a more fundamental level has a business model not centered on advertising and data collection). Pixel phones are not recommended because the Software/OS is good or privacy respecting, they are recommended because it is easy to replace the stock OS with something better–stock Android is much more invasive than stock iOS in many ways.
If you are comparing only stock Pixel to stock iPhone, iOS is the less invasive/exploitive of the two with respect to privacy. There are dozens of small ways and a few very big ways in which this is the case. Two examples of big things would be ADP (on-device encryption (e2ee) for almost all categories of data before they leave your device / are stored in the cloud. The second example would be the global tracking toggle. Another example is iMessage being E2EE by default. Google is slowly trying to catch up but because of how fragmented/decentralized Android and RCS currently are, encrypted messaging may never be the default for Android, at least not in the short term.
Beyond this there are many smaller ways in which stock iOS has an edge over stock Android. Both are far from perfect, but stock iOS processes more on device, has more privacy features available in the stock OS, and at least doesn’t go out of their way to undermine privacy in the way Google tends to in some contexts. They can do this because at the end of the day Apple makes almost all of their moeny from overpriced hardware and a growing range of services, their ad business is a rounding error, compared to Google who is a targeted advertising and data harvesting company, full stop. Virtually all of their revenue (85-95% last I saw) comes from advertising.
I don’t mistake either of these companies for my friend, and don’t trust either to have my best interests at heart. But if I were to just compare a stock iPhone and a stock Pixel phone solely on privacy I believe the iPhone is the lesser evil.
I mean, that is definitely one advantage Android has over iOS, but that is something somewhat separate from privacy (which is the topic of this thread).
To me, This is about control (which is important), which can be indirectly about privacy, where I agree with you is that having more control over your device can in certain situations enable more privacy, but being able to side load is not a direct practical privacy benefit,
I miss having the control I have with Android when I use an iOS device, but that in and of itself doesn’t mean I am less private on iOS than on Stock android.
Not having access to alternative stores like F-droid means I don’t have access to some of my favorite privacy apps, but in most or all cases that just means may not be able to use my preferred private app, the options for open source software are much more limited on iOS, but in most or all cases I’ve found suitable alternatives that are private and open source, I just have to make different choices than I would with android. But the other privacy advantages of iOS outweigh this disadvantage for me personally.
Also, FWIW, there are ways to get apps on iOS outside of the App store, they are just not as popular, or common, and not as convenient as they are with Android.
I’d rather just use whatsapp over imessage, proper cross-platform e2ee
I’d rather use Signal… But its not about what we’d “rather” do, its about what the people you actually communicate with will use. And roughly 5% of my contacts use Signal, 30-50% use Whatsapp, 30-50% iMessage. I don’t have the luxury of using just one messenger, and I certainly don’t have the luxury of just using my preferred messenger–and this is true for most people.
I also can’t imagine preferring Whatsapp (Meta) over iMessage with respect to privacy.
There’s a difference in actually trying to make a difference in privacy vs the illusion of doing something while achieving basically nothing
With Apple, there is a lot from column A and a lot from column B. Apple absolutely engages in privacy theatre, and Apple absolutely has made meaningful improvements to privacy and security in the last few years not present in Android. As with most things, its not a black and white binary.
You can sideload Orbot, Proton VPN, iVPN, and Mullvad VPN and even verify the apks. On iOS, you can’t do almost anything until you login.
VPNs don’t leak on Android when you enable Block connections without VPN meanwhile on iOS VPNs are an absolute meme. They have been leaking for years and Apple would state that its fixed even though it never was.
By linking to this article, you’re eventually saying that you don’t know what you’re talking about.
This is not a leak; this is intentional behavior, and internet connectivity checks have to be done outside of a VPN for phones to work properly. This “leak” doesn’t have any consequences for privacy. In fact, GrapheneOS allows you to disable them, but you shouldn’t, because then you would stand out from billions of devices and not be anonymous anymore.
You don’t need a Google account to use an Android phone.
You don’t need a phone number when creating an anonymous Google account.
If you are willing to provide a burner phone number when creating an anonymous Google account, then you can create it over Orbot (Tor), which will be superior to VPNs.
With Apple ID, you’re giving out a lot more of your information, and you really can’t create and use an anonymous Apple ID.
It is a criteria for your privacy, security, control, and freedom.
What kind of data and how much data?
What data is anonymized, and how much of it is anonymized and how is it anonymized?
Can it be tied to your real identity?
What data and how much of it is shared with third parties?
Prove me that iOS is better overall when considering all of these factors.
What?! Elaborate.
We are not ordinary people; we are privacy-conscious people. It’s irrelevant.
If you’re using an iPhone in China, you’re done. The Chinese government owns Apple in China. They will comply with every BS. There is no lockdown mode, AAP, etc. in China already.
How much of a percent is there that Apple is so scummy that they will treat their PWAs as sidealoding? 99%!
What kind of control does it give that Android doesn’t?
Apple’s profit as of now mainly comes from selling iPhones, but they have a complete monopoly and complete control over all Apple devices, which means that their advertising potential is enormous, and you know what all corporations need to do to survive? Increase shareholder value. So if you think that Apple will not take advantage of their advertising potential, then you’re coping.
How?
What are those?
Can you take a peek under the hood? How does it work, if it works at all, or if there are any issues? Probably not.
Let’s assume, in the best-case scenario, that everything is perfect and your data is encrypted. But what about metadata? Your metadata isn’t encrypted. Calling ADP a privacy feature is like calling WhatsApp a private messenger because content is encrypted! Who cares about metadata, right?
And now you’re using a service that isn’t even cross-platform, so Apple is locking you in their ecosystem. What an amazing privacy feature! Seriously, just use something like Proton Drive, which is actually fully encrypted and private.
Ah yes. iMessage, another service that only works on iPhones and tries to lock you in in their ecosystem. The service that doesn’t protect your metadata and is even worse than Whatsapp because Whatsapp is cross-platform and iMessage is critiqued for its potentially flawed encryption. What an amazing product.
You can use RCS on basically any Android, and you could do it on iOS too if Apple wouldn’t be monopolistic and anti-consumer, just saying. Even if RCS were the default, messengers like Signal are still much, much better for real-time communication.
Like?
Elaborate.
Their ad business is expanding, and an insane amount of money is just waiting for Apple to come and harvest it.
(Their global tracking toggle is a meme; it’s literally the same as deleting an advertising ID on an Android. But of course Apple is clever at marketing their products as private, and people fall for this kind of wording and marketing.)
iOS may or may not be privacy respecting from Apple, but it’s pretty fair to say iOS is more privacy respecting than stock Android if your goal is to limit interaction with 3rd parties. I don’t use iOS, but limiting my interaction to specific Vendors has been a goal of mine. If Apple wants to release features and functionality that improve privacy and limit 3rd party ability to be invasive, I say more power to them.
We are not ordinary people; we are privacy-conscious people. It’s irrelevant.
As I said, if we are talking about a privacy concious people, then you will use custom stock anyway instead of side loading apps etc. It’s really pointless if the whole discussion about the comparison for a tech savvy person.
It really comes down to your threat model. Otherwise, what is the chance of an ordinary person going inthat route.
And you specifically talk about Google Pixel since each vendor, be it Chinese or Samsung or others, embed their own data collection and apps. What is the market share of Pixels vis-a-via other androids?
Google play services and play store are privileged apps, so I am not an expert on this but I wonder how it will interact with other apps, even though you create an anonymous account.
So, my point is that for an ordinary person, iOS is better than stock android.
Again, if you are in china, you need a completely different opsec. It’s pointless to talk about it without knowing threat model.
I just read through this paper to see how iOS is better than Android in data collection, but this paper is from March 25, 2021, and the hardware used is a Google Pixel 2 (Android 10) and an iPhone 8. So yeah, is there any research that is up-to-date?
Those are just two studies I found with a quick web search. There are probably newer publications out there, and you can go looking for them if you’d like.
The age of the studies is irrelevant to the main point: for the vast majority of users and the vast majority of use cases - including me and most people on Privacy Guides - the privacy of stock Android and iOS is extremely similar.
If Graphene isn’t an option people should go with whatever fits their needs and threat model better. As I said, the main factor that swayed me towards iOS over Android was that newer Pixel phones are too big. Simple as that.
This thread just seems like an excuse for iOS vs Android platform wars at this point, which is not a good look.