Class Action Group/Collective?

Questions
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I was wondering if there already is and/or if anyone here would be interested in establishing some kind of “class action support/coordination group”. With that I mean, for example, a group of people who are interested in reacting and acting together against companies which make use of unfair and manipulative customer strategies. Such as banks blocking access to people account without informing them beforehand of the changes, just because they don’t use a stock Android and so on (like we’ve seen especially in the last year). Or even writing together letters to be sent to the respective courts. I know that there have been various initiatives of such kind in the past, but I never found an organised solution/group which makes the process smoother and make people in these situations feel more supported, instead than feeling almost “alone against Goliath”. I’m in contact with two acquaintances of mine, which are both lawyers and which would have interst in establishing/supporting something like this. This could also be used like some kind of collective fund, where people support one another’s court costs and even suggest which path/lawyer/approach may be best/better to employ.

Following a few threads on these forums, I have seen that some persons here repeatedly wished there was something acting in a more pro-active way, in supporting and bolstering the culture of respect of each one’s freedom, privacy and requirement of security. I also think that our voice should be more organised and more pro-active instead than only sharing links and subscribing to petitions/online actions. Also, if one manages to win cases in court, one could establish very powerful precedents, which could be used to our advantage in many ways.

So, if you know any group and/or initiative which does this more or less already, would be great if you mention it. If not, would be great if you share what is perception/vision/solution about this recurrent problematic.

Looking forward!

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A lot of companies have a Class Action Waiver clause in their Terms of Service now. This prevents anyone from joining in a class action lawsuit, and anything you want to do must be done in a one-on-one(you vs corporation) arbitration, which is usually private and never gets exposed publicly.

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Indeed. But the problem is only partially this clause, the other side of it (maybe even more relevant) are the precedents established by the decisions of various courts for cases leveraging on it. Also, as far as I know, this class action waiver is something more practised in the US, than elsewhere. In any case, I never sing a contract with companies which have a class action waiver in their terms of service and nobody should. As this is definitely a big point hinting at the company’s mentality and practices behind whatever they might like to display. In fact, I also check in which countries the given xy company has its legal offices: is that a country somewhere, where class actions are easier, or is in country which tend to restrict, or limit class actions etc.?

Nonetheless, even in the case one subscribed a contract with a class action waiver, there are a few ways to get around this. First and foremost, a class action can effectively be a class action in the sense of reciprocal support, without fully being a class action with a lawsuit. People could for example, simply provide moral and financial support to a common cause, even though not all names are officially on it. In such cases, would be a bit like a private person is acting like an agency. In fact, there is also the possibility to act through government agencies, or private ones, which act on the behalf of group, but this is arguably a more complicated procedure, than just one private person promoting the interests of more. Another possibility in the case of the US, is using the “unconscionability” clause, which depending on the state might be seen favourably upon (although the U.S. Supreme Court expressed itself more negatively than positively about this, lately). Also, the country and/or state where to attempt this should be taken carefully into consideration. For example, in the US, it seems like that starting from countries like California, instead than say Texas, might be a better option. In the EU Belgium and Netherlands have a better tradition of collective actions than some other countries. In this direction, a promising organisation seems to be Noyb

Whether to join forces while seeking the support of a non-profit organisations, or doing this only within a group of private people, is something which should be evaluated from the beginning. Exactly because of these complications and uncertainties, a well-organised group is much better off, than one or two persons alone, even if they decide to go through the route of the non-profit organisation.

Btw, do you have a list of relevant (e.g. not every company, but bigger companies which relate to the topics of this forum) companies/corporation which have this class action waiver in their terms? Could be relevant for many here.

The worrying thing about what happened with the class action waiver, is this tendency which dramatically increased in the last 20 years. Namely, that even major law changes tend to happen in the background and most people (some times even professionals) know nothing at all of the changes, until they are confronted directly with a problematic which pertains to them. I see this as an additional reason why we should be better organised and more “savvy” in a way, instead than waiting until last minute and then complaining that now it’s too late. This exactly what I mean with being pro-active and not just reactive.

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I love that in the past 1-2 months there seem to be a lot of people in this community looking to organize and fight back!

I personally feel like I should finish most of my privacy journey before I feel confident on spreading awareness and what should be done in easy 1-2-3 steps. People have a hard time downloading a new app, so it’s really hard to convince people why it’s important and what is at stake.

In the meantime, lots of my banks blocked me for either accessing their website or even making transactions. I had to call and complain. And be persistent. All problems were fixed with different solutions eventually.

Suing is also something companies will react to. Just sending letters sometimes is effective. But it is time consuming.

All that to say, +1 for your idea!

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I understand our desire for “perfection”, but this is not really attainable, especially in a technological context in which things change so fast and what you say is very private and secure today, may be a completely different story 1 year later. So, is more of an approach that should be “taught”, than any solution, specifically. The advantage of showing an approach is that it can be often used in many other contexts as well, independently from anybody being there pointing out what might be better and what not. For instance, if we had more people really posing themselves the question: yes is very easy to use Google’s every where, but what consequences does this have on my and other people’s security and privacy? What’s behind this company? Are there potential alternatives? Instead than using blindly whatever is available out there as the easiest option, what is important to me and what is my use case? Is the what really more important than the how for me, or have I been just assuming this? If people would ask themselves such questions more regularly, we would move at a somewhat slower pace at the beginning, but a lot of things would change dramatically for the better. Unfortunately, we are in context what teaches the opposite; namely that anything can be jumped or damage what is in the way between you and whatever your aim is set for.

For this, forums and initiatives like PrivacyGuides are very useful; making people feel implicitly the concrete possibility of a new approach to things and also that they are not completely alone with this. The obstacle here it that such initiatives rarely find fertile soil, since the idealistic nature why this is important has been taught to be an obstacle itself to one’s success. What most people still miss is a more concrete and somewhat closer movement/group of people who strive for the same. I mean there are a few groups/initiative where people really come together and do things together, but they are not many, in most cases their members are not so numerous and definitely not yet capillary widespread.

I agree that calling works, if one is persistent enough. However, ever more “online banks” have no number which can be reached (such as Revolut). Collective actions are an option, but then it needs to be a larger action for the corporation to even notice it (still every one should do it, without thinking about how many others are doing it, of course). Establishing a court precedent is on another level though, because this is something which can be used also from other people and groups even thereafter and because you have a kind of established a “new legal ground” which can be leveraged upon. I think the issue here is that such corporations and organisation are pro-active and we are still passive/reactive. Meaning, we shouldn’t only defend ourselves, we should strive to actively shape things for the better. We cannot do it easily, because we don’t have just this one thing in life to do and achieve, while for highly paid lobbyists this often the case. Still, we are more in numbers and with better organisation and consistency, we could definitely fill the gap.

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Anyway, regarding what I said at the beginning, recently we started a small group with these two acquaintances of mine (the two lawyers) and a few other persons. The intention is having a group for which there is one precise action and everybody in the group finds his/her own way to concretely support the collective action: discussing is of course nice, but in this context, just for the sake of itself, it doesn’t make much sense.

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I completely agree! Let me rephrase.

I feel too far behind to start such initiative, but I welcome yours and wish you the best of luck! I’ll follow this topic on the next steps you take to make it happen.

On my end, I’m thinking of simply starting a thread on how to convince people without being “that guy.” Or how to break that perception. And what are the general talking points.

Edit: here’s the thread in question Taking a stand in your circles

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Thanks.

I do think, this kind of thinking is part of the problem. We are all partially right when we believe not to know enough and not to be fully up to the task, yet. But when are we ever? Any kind of project got started at some point by deciding to “jump”. Even professional and competent projects like GrapheneOS, weren’t ready from the beginning on for the task they deliver today—they became it progressively. We are faced from the opposite: corporations are often lead from people who simply have too much money for what they can handle, but, without knowing almost anything specifically about the intrinsic value of their entrepreneurship, they just bombast their way to some sort of success (in the form of money, of course). In the other words they are simply good at gambling without even being good at the game. Vaunted audacity, even when “stupid”, is often rewarded. I think this is what we somewhat miss.

In my experience, no matter on what, one always reaches the point, where he/she is still not sure about if it’s “perfect”, if it’s really the right moment and so on, but is asked to just try it out and give it run, accepting to have some “blind spots”. I think if one has a good basic attitude, then they will learn along the way, while trying, what they still miss. I do understand why we all hesitate and I even find it relatively good, but is also important to keep an eye on how much we act, or do not, based on hesitation and how much we do the same based on self-reliance and belief that we are doing the right thing, even if we are not perfect and have not all the right knowledge, yet.

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Anyway, things are proceeding in our small group, somewhat slowly, because we are trying to get our “aim” just right. But I’ll post here the link soon enough, for whoever might be interested in rising a little mess in a somewhat more blatant way and/or in need of some support/advice for any legal action we can advocate for.

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