Well… this should be interesting.
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I am a bit confused on what the threat model would be for this service. Its not really anonymous, Phreeli still collects all legally required information. This information would seemingly make it simple to identify the customer if Phreeli was compelled.
So this is what Merrill has been up to since Calyx….
Interested to see how this goes. I hope they don’t go the way of Cape Mobile where they just make up entirely misleading claims about their services.
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Signing up a customer for phone service without knowing their name is, surprisingly, legal in all 50 states, Merrill says. Anonymously accepting money from users—with payment options other than envelopes of cash—presents more technical challenges. To that end, Phreeli has implemented a new encryption system it calls Double-Blind Armadillo, based on cutting-edge cryptographic protocols known as zero-knowledge proofs. Through a kind of mathematical sleight of hand, those crypto functions are capable of tasks like confirming that a certain phone has had its monthly service paid for, but without keeping any record that links a specific credit card number to that phone. Phreeli users can also pay their bills (or rather, prepay them, since Phreeli has no way to track down anonymous users who owe them money) with tough-to-trace cryptocurrency like Zcash or Monero.
How long before this becomes regulated and illegal? Governments are going to begin mandating more info. I guess people can still fake them if payment is private and in crypto as described but the regulation for this could also entail requirement to collect real names and addresses. I hope this never becomes the case but we’ll have to wait and see how popular this gets. Will also be interesting to see the rationale authorities are going to come up with blaming this service and their users for the crimes they can’t contain or mitigate - as a rationale for regulation on an anonymous service.
How long before this becomes regulated and illegal? Governments are going to begin mandating more info.
Yep. One of the things I was thinking when I said “interesting”.
Well, until governments mandate and amend their law to include asking and saving real IDs from customers, people should still be able to fake their names and addresses if payment is crypto based.
But will certainly be interesting if this becomes a thing. Its not unprecedented to mandate accurate and real info so hard to say anything about it today. I’m sure he’s thought of this and so I wonder if there’s a solution for this.
Anyone have a website to the start up? I couldn’t find it in the article.
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Yep…
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Okay, looking at the website. It looks like a fantastic option. It also has data roaming so you can buy it and use in your own country with roaming and no extra or hidden fees. It’s anonymous data and cellular service for non US residents in International markets too!
This is more and more amazing as I continue to read and learn about it.
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I hope the service isn’t too good to be true. I’m gong to wait for it to mature and have people test it out before I personally use it.
If I recall, I think PG used to recommend Mint Mobile before it was bought out by T Mobile or something. No idea who the founders of that are. But since the founder of Phreeli is a public figure in the privacy space (it seems, at least, based on Kevin’s statement) I hope that it doesn’t get bought out similarly to Mint Mobile.
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I’ve just asked Privacy Guides to review it sooner than later on the This Week in Privacy thread that’s happening tomorrow. Let’s see if they decide to do it soon or not. Please comment and ask for the same. If more people ask for it, they may do it.
My thoughts:
- It is still a MVNO so all that juicy location and traffic data will be available to the actual carriers and governments.
- That pricing is a complete rip off.
- Calyx themself literally offers a $500/year truly unlimited SIM, meanwhile Phrelli’s $1,020/year plan is capped to 40GB a month.
- Visible has a stellar $25/month plan that is also truly unlimited, but hotspot is capped at 5Mbps. They take fake address & name without issue.
- And the continued silence on the coup of Calyx is highly concerning.
My advice:
- Use Wi-Fi where possible.
- Always use Mullvad or Tor.
- If you do use a SIM card give them minimal information and keep it in airplane mode when possible.
- Use a VOIP service for phone number that is detached from SIM.
- Also please be aware that many hotspot devices are highly insecure and often years behind security patches.
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It is strange. I wonder if he wanted to do this at Calyx and they decided it didn’t make sense.
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Pricing is subjective, to each their own for what they value and how much. So this notwithstanding, it doesn’t look like a bad service in the slightest for how you can begin and continue using it.
No PII is involved. What’s the problem if you use a trustworthy VPN too?
I imagine it would be too much to do both Calyx and this at the same time, But that’s just reasonable conjecture for the difficulties and busyness I am reading he has gone through thus far. Though I’m sure there has to be another reason.
They have your location and paths you take every day. There are dozens of companies who specialize in such location tracking datasets, any of which can instantly deanoymize you.
Not to mention that majority of users switching won’t be buying new phones with untained IMEIs.
There are ZERO cell service companies that can be anonymous, no matter what BS they spew. I don’t understand why people the media keeps shilling them.
Especially considering again, that ZERO of these “privacy” carriers are even running their own infrastructure.
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If you’re referring to me shilling them, that’s slander. I was genuinely asking. Choice of words in exposition/responses matter.
Well, WIRED is labeling it as anonymous. It is however as private as a cellular service can be. Nothing wrong in that. I don’t see the service themselves claim they are anonymous on their website (thus far at-least).
I think this is explained in the article if you didn’t read it. I don’t fully understand it but there is an explanation and I am still continuing to evaluate this service. I am commenting here as I continue to read and learn at the same time.
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Not you. The media.
I read it. They decoupled payments from IMSIs. Big whoop. Completely irrelevant.
Verizon and T-Mobile or whoever can still have a field day.
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Cape is at least a theoretically interesting one if you buy their extra-special phone (which I don’t know whether it’s publicly available) with IMSI switching. Although I have not looked into them in detail.
I am disappointed in Phreeli’s privacy policy though, because:
For purposes of this policy, any information collected from your use of the Services will be referred to as “Personal Information.” Personal Information is collected either (a) voluntarily from you, or (b) automatically via technologies we employ to provide Services.
[From Section 1]
…
Network service providers. We share your Personal Information with network service providers and partners to provide you with the Mobile Services. Once shared, your Personal Information will also be subject to the network service provider’s privacy policy. You can view T-Mobile’s Privacy Policy here.
[From Section 3]
This is quite a backdoor. Phreeli deleting your personal information from their systems is all fine and dandy, but exactly like you pointed out if they are dealing with third-party infrastructure like they obviously have to without any technical protections then what can you really expect?
I suppose obtaining a phone number without providing PII is a useful service, although it is certainly not a novel one and there are plenty of other providers with likely better pricing/terms than Phreeli, but when you have no privacy from cell tower tracking after the fact I’m not sure how much of a benefit this really is.
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Well, it certainly is that considering the alternatives - as I see it. And many are going to. There can’t always only be all good reasons to use it. Every product has some cons.
I’m not sure you’re being nuanced or accounting for the massive improvements to existing solution this service provides.
That’s just my two cents at the moment. But thanks for clarifying.
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