Remove ProtonVPN

[Encounter5729]

They aren’t entitled to give an update. Try messaging them first.

[anonymous549]

@Encounter5729

Try messaging them first.

Why? It makes no sense to create a private message to ask for an update related to a public thread. While they have no obligation to respond, it seems strange because they currently have an entire category of recommendations that don’t meet their criteria and are apparently doing nothing about it. Responding to a thread requires no extra effort on their part—they do it all the time.

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@Encounter5729

They aren’t entitled to give an update

As a small aside, the word “entitled” is an odd choice in this context. A term like “obligated” would make more sense. I understand that not everyone speaks English as their first language, and I mention this only to offer assistance.

[lyricism]

I think at this point the lack of an answer is kind of an answer itself. An incredibly disappointing one too.

[privacy.slouchy]

I am a Proton aficionado, a white knight for the company, a daily active user. I believe Proton belongs on the recommendation list

I also trust the PG staff, believe they are fighting the good fight, and do not intend to doubt anyone’s honor, intentions, or resolve

With that context plainly written out, I am also… uncomfortable with the open-ended status on this monthslong discussion. I find myself wondering whether there is a systemic issue that warrants a separate discussion, in the name of keeping the community ‘firing on all cylinders’

It may simply be that everyone is swamped, this is in the queue. That would be fine. But, respectfully, I think we’re missing some - ‘transparency’, maybe? A simple update is probably warranted

[anonymous549]

@privacy.slouchy

A simple update is probably warranted

Exactly, one would think since the first request for an update in this thread came over 40 days ago, they could have found the time to assemble some sort of response.

alas…

@anonymous520

They do seem to move at glacially slow speeds when it comes to answering tool suggestions.

[Expert4870]

I have felt that way with a few different site suggestions. Maybe there is somewhere I am not looking, but it is a bit weird to me.

[nicotiu]

I imagine they spend their free time on other things they consider more important (like the YouTube channel). After all, ProtonVPN still works well despite some inconveniences.

That said, a brief reply mentioning that they haven’t had time to make a decision yet would still be appreciated.

[ignoramous]

@SwampTrainer

Guys, I recently discovered

Did you also discover the rest of the thread? If not, I suggest you do before making sarcastic comments that have nothing to do with the thread.

[kissu]

I haven’t read the lengthy thread myself either, yet I would also go against your paragraph with a simple:
if you advertise supporting Linux but actually don’t, then I’m not sure your product is as good as you’re claiming.

There is probably more to the discussion but as stated and seen elsewhere, Proton doesn’t guarantee feature parity in all the places while still saying that they do (hence false claims).

Maybe some TLDR of all the 100 messages above could be welcome to newcomer to this thread like me.

[ignoramous]

@kissu

Maybe some TLDR

3+ tldrs already up thread.

@ignoramous

To summarise: ProtonVPN doesn’t meet minimum criteria laid out by PG, as its macOS client has a broken killswitch.

…

Not removing it or not changing the minimum criteria for VPNs right away then makes PG a “dangerous” source of information. I mean, we won’t tolerate this from other projects or orgs, so why Proton?

@jonah

I wasn’t bothered by this when he did basically a similar thing with Calyx and their hotspots, but Phreeli IMO has gone too far with the privacy claims and is actually misrepresenting their product, which is dangerous for consumers

And: Remove ProtonVPN - #114 by Breeze7846

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@kissu

probably more to the discussion

There’s plenty (ex), but I sense the thread is at risk of being closed / unlisted as offtopic (conveniently enough), if sarcastic commentators with no clue keep flaring things up.

[anonymous549]

@ignoramous

There’s 2 issues here:

1. The VPN apps not implementing “killswitch” supported by OSes (regardless of whatever valid justification).

• This, presently, is PG’s minimum criteria for recommended VPNs.

2. The VPN apps not being able guarantee that no traffic will leak (which they can never, unless they have privileged access, which they don’t on most OSes including Android and iOS).

Thats the big part for me. However you feel about these specific VPNs, the staff of Privacy Guides should be much quicker to resolve criteria issues (or at the very least respond to them). If they are willing to go weeks reccomending tools that do not actually meet their minimum criteria they are no better then any of the other SEO farm ranking sites.

[SwampTrainer (Yo)]

Indeed, I did read the entire thread. My mistake was thinking anyone in this thread would respond to any sort of levity without getting personally offended. Sorry, but yes, even after reading the whole thread, I don’t see this as the life-or-death issue that some people take it to be.

And my comment did actually have to do with the thread - this is a MacOS issue, not something that applies to every operating system. That’s the point of the comment. Perhaps MacOS should be considered as the problem as it was noted that this seems to be an issue with more than just Proton on MacOS.

[SwampTrainer (Yo)]

Well, this whole thread started off with the kill switch on MacOS being a problem because of how MacOS works. Though Mullvad and IVPN both can pull it off, so it’s certainly possible not impossible. I will agree that ProtonVPN on Linux is hit or miss - on any Deb distro the tray icon may or may not show up, and can’t be used for shortcuts. Personally, the killswitch has worked find when I tested it, but anything I take seriously I just do a CLI wireguard connection and not use the Proton app.

But, bigger picture, sometimes people on PG take stuff like this WAY too seriously. Maybe it’s my threat model doesn’t match theirs, but it also seemed like a discussion that needed a joke, and I mis-read the room.

[kissu]

@SwampTrainer

MacOS being a problem because of how MacOS works

That’s kinda the core of the issue here: saying that it works flawslessly while it doesn’t.
Might be the fault of the OS but still, you kinda need to pull it off if you advertise it.

@SwampTrainer

Though Mullvad and IVPN both can pull it off, so it’s certainly possible not impossible.

Precisely why there is scrutiny and pushback on Proton here.

@SwampTrainer

I just do a CLI wireguard connection and not use the Proton app

Same here, your average Proton customer should not need to know how to do that.
A product should not need workarounds to deliver on their promises.

@SwampTrainer

sometimes people on PG take stuff like this WAY too seriously

I think that it’s just fair criticism given that others have same harsh treatment, why would Proton have a green card and be dismissed of such strict rules while the others do?

[Ganther]

@nicotiu

That said, a brief reply mentioning that they haven’t had time to make a decision yet would still be appreciated.

No response is also a response. The only question is why they’ve chosen to ignore this for the past three months. Is Proton paying to be on this site or something? I was under the impression that they are on here as a genuine free recommendation, but I can’t think of any other reason why they would neglect to respond in any way for an entire quarter.

[jonah (Jonah Aragon)]

@anonymous484

I would just prefer the criteria be changed then proton be removed.

I am getting this overall impression from most people on this thread, does that seem accurate to everyone?

@lyricism

We can separately change the requirements if they don’t make sense, but it seems completely spineless to do so only to protect a brand.

It seems more likely to me that the strict criteria no longer makes sense. I have no problems removing Proton if we feel that it best, but it doesn’t sound like most people want to see that outcome, and I’m not sure that outcome makes sense to me either.

@anon69871701

Proton currently does not meet the criteria as others have explained it, so it should currently be removed with scope for reintroduction after criteria is changed.

I disagree, if it’s reasonable to think it’s most likely that we’ll change our criteria, then we should do that.

@anon36227541

Edit: I haven’t read the full thread as of yet, so I’m wondering if anyone has brought up implementing OS-specific recommendations?

I’m not sure this would be the best option, but it is potentially an option to say our criteria only strictly applies to the operating systems we recommend, and the only operating systems we recommend right now are various Linux distros and GrapheneOS.

[dadnerd]

I am in favor of changing the criteria. I think Proton VPN is important especially since it’s the best option that can be used without an account. I just feel like people should be aware not to rely on the killswitch. Another option is just adding a general note to the VPN page with all the disclaimers about when killswitches aren’t really kill switches (since it’s my understanding that these issues affect more than just Proton VPN). Essentially something like “we recommend enabling the kill switch, but please do not rely on the kill switch for any critical opsec needs”.

[Anvil]

@jonah

I am getting this overall impression from most people on this thread, does that seem accurate to everyone?

Personally, I think both should happen. The criteria should be changed to something along the lines of “if a VPN provides their own custom client, we require a kill switch to block network data leaks when disconnected. Unfortunately not all operating systems allow for a complete kill switch, but the kill switch implemented by first party clients should be as complete as possible on every platform, within reason.” Because Proton VPN is the only currently listed provider that does not meet this criteria, it should not be recommended.

Possibly in addition to that in the marketing section there could be a point about responsible marketing of the kill switch function.

If people feel strongly about Proton being recommended, it should be lower down on the page, maybe under a separate “recommended free VPN” heading with some warnings about the unpatched kill switch leaks on macOS and linux.

[dadnerd]

I thought this issue affected IVPN on MacOS as well? But maybe I’m mistaken. There are also times like during Linux system updates when the daemon will disconnect, affecting many clients and distros. Just some kind of disclaimer about all this would be great and help keep people safer.