Speaking of Bluefin/Bazzite, I was talking about earlier, they have a simple command called ujust install-resolve and it will just set everything up for you in a distrobox. This is what I use because DaVinci Resolve is a pain to setup manually and maintaining a normal package management distro genuinely sucks the soul out of my boody (also alternatives like Kdenlive are terrible).
1 Like
Atomic distros are even less user friendly because you get even less options to install software.
Suggestion: use Arch, it’s the easiest distro if you’re somewhat experienced. Things like Ubuntu or Mint might be easier for the complete beginner but Arch causes the least mid to long-term pain.. Everything not on the repos is in the AUR, and all popular programs have binary releases so it should be pretty safe and easy as long as you can read the build files (which are very simple and short for most binary packages).
I sure hope this is a joke.
No, I’m serious. People who say that arch is unfriendly or breaks all the time either don’t know what they are talking about, or have been very unlucky. Been using it for years, had exactly one boot failure that was easily fixed
sigh
The fact that they have to read every build files at all is bonkers for a beginner. What happens if a package on the AUR stops being updated and they can’t use it anymore with a new library? Why are we promoting a distribution model that doesn’t even have any sandboxing (even broken one). The argument to use Arch because of app availibility falls apart when you consider distrobox exist and is more user-friendly when using BoxBuddy. Also!! It doesn’t break the system!
Not to mention that you have to setup security features like secure boot manually? This is why Linux is a joke to most people. It genuinely only does “what about the tinkerers” and everything else suffers because of it.
2 Likes
In my opinion–as a longtime, fulltime, happy Linux user–Linux is not ^ this (regardless of whether its atomic or not). Atomics might bring Linux to this point at some point in the future, I hope they do, and that is a big part of the goal of many of these projects, and related side proejcts. But atomicity itself doesn’t solve that, its just one piece of the puzzle, it is equally important for the ecosystem of related projects and tools to mature and continue to develop.
Linux has made tremendous strides over the past 20 years, and especially the past 10 years, when it comes to being accessible to slightly less tech savvy people. But at the end of the day Desktop Linux is for the most part built by and for a tech savvy, highly technically curious, diy oriented crowd, of nerds, tinkerers, and people who are passionate about technology (technically or philosophically). For many who enjoy Linux, it’s part useful tool, and part interest/hobby/values based choice.
And because Desktop Linux doesn’t have “customers” (outside of the context of enterprise), the incentives of the people devoting their time and effort to Linux is primarily focused on their own needs and wants, and their own communities needs and wants.
I mostly agree with @asanyan that:
Atomic distros are even less user friendly [at this point in time]
But I strongly differ with their opinion that:
use Arch, it’s the easiest distro
What I would say is that, if you are motivated to learn how Linux works on a deeper level, and have the time, Arch can be an exceptional learning tool. I’ve read enough of @asanyan’s comments to believe that this is true for them, but I don’t believe it is true for most people (or even most Linux users).
@asanyan and @anon5410820 I think one thing we as Linux users often lose sight of, is that once we are pointing at things like “distrobox” or the “aur” as tools to make things easier we’ve already left the space that most non-linux users would consider “easy”, “simple” or “user friendly”.
4 Likes
Well, which is why I suggest things that already set that up by default, On Bluefin, if you download a .deb for example, you can graphically set it up (it will automatically select compatible distro) so you only have to click next next like on Windows.
Genuinely if I had to use Arch, I’d rather just save up money to afford a Macbook, I’m a biology student, I ain’t got time for package management.
PS: I’m only mentioning distrobox to people who already understand what it means
2 Likes
Read the guy’s post, he’s not a complete noob and has experience.
Then the package will be orphaned and a notification will be shown in your AUR helper. Also, the upgrade will fail if the package from the AUR requires a specific version of the library, which is a good thing because then you are made aware of the problem and can decide what to do.
If the sandboxing is broken/doesn’t work then it’s worse than useless, in my humble opinion. All it does is create a false sense of security.
How do you secure it? Genuine question, I haven’t used these tools. I can only assume it would be trickier but if you have a setup that you’re satisfied with then please do share, Distrobox actually disables isolation features from the container in order to better integrate with the desktop better. How do you fix it?
Yeah no shit? Maybe not for secureboot specifically but no distro has an acceptable security model except maybe for secureblue but it comes at a big cost for usability.
You don’t but you don’t with Arch either?
That’s fair but also “Too much a struggle for the time being, I need to use my time in more productive ways and the OS can’t be something that get in the way.”, I feel like Arch is the opposite of that
1 Like
You can, quite easily, secure arch packages (and other distro packages too, for that matter) with tools like bubblejail and apparmor.
I’m pretty sure you can use bubblejail in distrobox as well, I haven’t tried mainly because I use distrobox for like one app that’s not available as a flatpak.
You are right that distrbox+boxbuddy being pre-installed does make this a bit more accessible, but it doesn’t really address the mental complexity of having to put your software sourcing choices through this mental filter, of an order of preference (flatpak, if not flatpak then distrobox, if not distrobox then layered).
Compared to other immutable linux distros, Bluefin does improve the UX. I think they are doing tremendous work in this area, and I believe in the goals of the project (Also Aeon, also GnomeOS if it comes to exist). But at the same time, if you compare to other immutables (iOS, Android) and the dead simplicity of sourcing software on those platforms, the simplicity gap becomes more obvious.. In short, it depends what you compare against.
1 Like
I know, it sucks 
It can’t hold a candle to what is possible on Android and iOS, but I think it’s much more preferable to package management for a new user. I still wouldn’t recommend Linux to like 80% of the people I know, it’s just simply pretty unreliable and I don’t think that’s going to change in the next 10 years with how much the community is resistant to change and want “tinkering!!”.
Honestly it might be easier to just make Windows private than make Linux usable, but that’s neither here nor there.
1 Like
My personal experience is that if you know how to use the command line (which user1 does) then it’s dead simple after the initial setup, and I’m not the only one who shares this mindset; it’s not without reason that Arch has been gaining so much popularity in the last few years. If it was as hard as some people here make it out to be, or broke as often, it wouldn’t have half the userbase and I wouldn’t use it either.
If you try it and it works well, then please let me know.
In contrast, the package installation experience in Arch is as follows: yay -Ss <package> ; yay -S <package-name>. Package is installed.
In my opinion not any better.
The AUR is unofficial software, without a root of trust. Indiscriminate usage of the AUR is discouraged by the Arch Linux Project, and it is expected that you will know how to read PKGBUILD files and understand why that is important.
And of course if you are worried about unsandboxed distrobox packages, or lack of selinux/apparmor in that context, you’d also be worried about unsandboxed or unconfined software on Arch, which means you’d need to learn how to use apparmor (or selinux if you feel capable), and learn how to configure it. This is extremely removed from “simple” in my opinion.
Where I agree with you, is that Arch makes it easier to understand how the basic building blocks of your OS works if you are motivated to learn, more so than many other Linux distros, and more so than Windows/Mac/iOS/Android.
1 Like
Certainly, you need to verify if the source corresponds to a repo that belongs to the actual program, and read the build files if it’s an AUR package. If you know basic shell (which you need for arch and pretty much for every other linux) then you can also figure this out at least for binary packages with simple PKGBUILDs. Pretty much every popular project has a -bin package. Here’s the package() from simplex-desktop-bin
cd "$srcdir"
tar --zstd -xvf data.tar.zst -C "$pkgdir"
mkdir -p "$pkgdir/usr/share/applications"
ln -s /opt/simplex/lib/simplex-simplex.desktop "$pkgdir/usr/share/applications/simplex.desktop"
mkdir -p "$pkgdir/usr/bin"
ln -s /opt/simplex/bin/simplex "$pkgdir/usr/bin/simplex-desktop"
True, but also true for every other distro. If you want a secure system, then you need to learn things and there is no way around it at least as of now.
Also apparmor isn’t enough to confine some desktop apps, you need something like firejail or bubblejail which fortunately are also much easier to setup than apparmor.
SELinux distros confine a few things by default which is nice, but most desktop packages run unconfined and have full access to user data. Many flatpaks also give way more access than they should.
I wrote a long response but it felt like a tangent/off-topic. I’ll leave the final paragraph because it feels on-topic and send the rest as a DM.
In any case, I think the quickness with which the 3 of us devolved into Linux users debating with one another over things that from the outside probably sound like esoteric or technical minutae, is kind of proving @user1 's point about difficulty of finding clear information, about linux fragmentation, and about the relative complexity of Linux compared to other OSes (from the POV of casual end users). We get more choice than other OSes, and more control, but with that comes more complexity, fragmentation, and responsibility.
4 Likes
I would like to thank @xe3 @AmyIsCoolz and @asanyan in engaging with me and my struggle and for suggesting solutions.
My specific case is not so important, what I would like to express is that, despite the last 10 years or so reading everywhere that linux is ready for the masses, it is really not, like some of you pointed out.
Windows, MacOS, Android and iOS exists and are real solid OSes, user friendly and with great UX. They are not perfect but you don’t have to be an enthusiast tinker to use them and perform all the basic tasks.
That is not the case for linux today and it’s not really for the fear of using the terminal but the inner complex and fragmented nature and working of the linux system.
If I am a Windows advanced user I can try MacOS and have a somewhat similar experience but if I try linux suddenly I’m totally lost.
A normal user in 2024 expect to be able to install software in a couple of clicks, an advanced user can go to use the terminal and tinker some more but that’s it. You can’t expect to be bothered with package types and managers, wrappers, dependencies, distro specific commands, layering and so on.
What happen when you need to install some drivers, to configure a firewall or something more advanced?
Precisely 
Besides tinkers from my personal point of view linux can work well just if you use a vanilla distro for web surfing, libreoffice use and probably some gaming on Steam.
That said I will try Bluefin just because of my old stubborn inner voice that hate to admit defeat 
P.S.: I found this interesting page that lay down in way more details the sortcomings of linux for the prime time use.
1 Like
The atomic distros are a bother too use right now, especially since the programs I use aren’t officially available via flatpak like the proton suite of apps.
Having to reboot per update of .rpm files is too painful.
Veracrypt isnt compatible with the current version of silverblue due to the fact that the .rpm files are compatible with the Fedora 41 release yet.
I haven’t tried the other atomic distros yet, so maybe it has better experience OOTB over there. I know I am supposed to use toolbox/distrobox for the other app installation like Signal desktop but I cant be bothered to learn right now.
Wish you luck on that! I mostly use my computers for PDF viewer, browser, Genshin, and RStudio (god I hate this thing) for my stats class, so my needs are quite minimal (also DaVinci Resolve before my main PC broke). Bluefin’s goal is to get the reliability of a Chromebook, and I’m quite happy with it so far.
I agree with your point, but I have met people who told me MacOS is hard to learn and they don’t know how to shut it down 
Just one person though, but it was odd
People will say that and then have videos explaining Linux packaging format as if that’s something they expect new users will understand (not naming name of the YouTuber, but you might be able to guess :P)
1 Like