I was reading Cory Doctorow’s blog, and he talked about an essay by Steven Bellovin that discusses various issues related to privacy-preserving age verification solutions.
I believe it aligns well with the topic of this thread.
I recommend giving it a read. It covers a range of minor and major issues that I hadn’t considered before.
Here is the link to Bellovin’s essay:
If regulation of IDPs is by national governments, the question naturally arises as to what extent Web servers in other countries should trust them. (There is an entirely separate question, one out of scope for this essay and arguably for this workshop, of to what extent a Web server is obligated to enforce the restrictions imposed by a site visitor’s country’s laws.)
A number of other possible uses for CL credentials are given in [3], including opening bank accounts, employment verification, and vaccination certificates [29]; however, this is also
a major point of social control, since it is possible to revoke a primary credential and with it all derived subcredentials[2]. Those who are disfavored by authoritarian governments may lose access not just to pornography, but to social media and all of these other services
Indeed.
Extremely long thread and I’m not going to read it all.
Age verification cannot work, and the reason for that is it’s personal information to know a person’s age. That fact does not change regardless how you package it.
As for “what parents want” or “think”, that is pretty irrelevant and can be easily manipulated in a poll. Generally these polls are done in such a way where the questions are framed like “do you want the government to protect your kids online” etc.
The problem is that it leaves out major nuances for example, that it becomes a data point to track their child (even when their child is no longer a child). It’s not like these accounts which have been verified are going to immediately forget that information when you turn 18. Additionally adults also have to comply to prove they’re not children.
When it doesn’t work out and kids and adults figure out ways around it, then who is responsible for that? What about services which simply refuse to comply because “its not a law in our land”.
This is where it all fails and becomes entirely a bloviated distraction from parenting and having a good relationship with your child.
To respond to how implementing age verification.
First, I don´t think Internet in itself should be age-gated. At least in the current society, this is unrealistic. People, including children, need Internet access.
Second, the goal isn´t to block every child accessing content they shouldn´t. It is merely making it hard so only a minority access such content.
Put restrictions on phones by default (in physical stores).
separate child/adults phones. Only sell adult phone when the person is visibly >16 (or another age we choose) or require ID when this isn´t the case. Note that this may not be needed on online store, since a child can´t have a “credit” card without parental approval.
Put nefarious-for-child content under a light age verification.
No KYC, just Captchas but to test adulthood. This could test either relatively advanced questions or trivial question but specific to adults. ChatGPT makes this harder, but you can monitor whether the person stays on the site or goes to another one (this is a standard Web API). Or ask question to gauge age and maturity (like Youtube).
ISP restrictions
Plans for minor should by default have a block-list and prevent VPN access and Tor. Ideally, this would be done in a transparent manner. (It does raise some censorship questions as you train ISPs to get better at firewalls).
Societal pressure
Make parents and school ensure they do not break the rules.
Final: I don´t know whether we need to do this. Social media for kids is definitely ruining them, but all of us really. In any case, we need to be transparent about our goals and see how to achieve them in the best way. For now, we haven´t seen that.
This ties in a lot with the higher level philosophical issues we discussed in After Charlie Kirk's death, teachers and professors nationwide fired or disciplined over social media posts - #93 by benm .
The concept of age verification was mostly made necessary by pornography, which was originally made legal on the grounds that it is (American) constitutionally protected speech, which is at minimum a bold claim. Speech considered “harmful” in one way or another has not always been protected, and virtually everyone understands there are limits of some kinds of harmful speech, like defamation or yelling fire in a crowded theater. Protecting pornography as a subset of your rights became a poison pill.
Most people understand there is media that is fine for adults but “not appropriate for children” due to language, themes, etc. It makes sense that you might kick this to parental responsibility. But pornography is different because it creates compulsive behavior and is especially damaging for children, especially when they are going through puberty. Children are going to be a lot more secretive and compulsive about seeking it out against their parents’ wishes if they get enough exposure early on, and for that reason I think it is a legitimate safety issue for children.
That being said, the US and especially Europe have every reason to not trust their governments for age verification. It seems like we have an actual civil liberties issue made necessary by an artificial civil liberties issues. Governments are dying for a chance to smuggle in spyware against their populations under the guise of protecting the children.
America already has limits on selling alcohol and cigarettes to children, and you can’t buy most of these products online because of how regulated they are. The history of porn online makes it seem like this would be impossible to apply to porn, but it’s definitely possible if there is a will. There are already limits against child pornography, and you could enforce it the same way, especially if you provide some alternate legal avenue.
Rather than make online age verification mandatory, take away the chief offending content.
I understand this would require some level of international involvement to achieve.
Why do we suddenly need to verify ages and IDs? The Internet and been around for over 30 years, and so has online porn. There already is an age verification mechanism and it’s called being old enough to sign a contract with an ISP.
Social media probably.
Also Parents pay for ISPs. It is not teenagers or kids potentially registering (besides you pointed the obvious, a child can’t).
Address the root issue and stop being nonsense please.
The root issue is parents not doing their jobs.
that is a root issue, no objection
Enough is enough. This is a bit of a 180, but until States stop to F. us over with :
Chat Control
Censorship,
Formenting division (US formidable Supreme Leader),
Facial Recognition
Data Retention
Palanthir
Videosuveillance
KYC requirements for so much, etc.
I don’t want them to give them ONE FREAKING “INCH” OF POWER.
These are all baby steps to a social credit system. The politicians and people holding power are foaming at their mouths and salivating for the day life in China becomes a reality in the West or the rest of the world.
People are not seeing the full picture.
People who die on the hill “It can’t happen here” are the ones in for a reckoning along with the rest who are undermining these issues and patterns. We are awake to this. The vast vast majority are asleep.