How to contact a lawyer before sending personal details?

Questions
1

Edit: I think this post got quite derailed, even if the discussion is interesting, so im going to post here what I wanted to ask in a resumed way:

If you send an email using Tor with Protonmail for instance, is it ok if it includes your name (redacting your surname) and perhaps a phone number? For example, to an accountant or lawyer. Could the email be blocked because of the IP? should I use a regular VPN instead?
I am not a technical person, I work in finance, I just know that as a general rule of thumb it’s good to not use your IP next to confidential data.

Obviously, once I become a real client with them, I would reveal any data (this should be obvious since you cannot work with someone without knowing who they are anyway). This is just to reveal as little as possible when you are not committed with them.

2

This is not a good idea. No professional law firm is going to respond to you if you don’t disclose your names and your willingness to speak with them over the phone. They may simply consider your email as spam and move on.

What are you even trying to achieve here? Please explain why you’re even trying to do it this way. The context will help.

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3

Yeah of course one would use at least name and willingness to speak on the phone, but you don’t want tax records sent to a bunch of emails with your dox and IP, so first you send initial emails safely, the question was how to do this properly.

An increasingly common example with financial lawyers would be:
Client bought 1 BTC in localbitcoins 10 years ago, or obtained it on faucets or other non-KYC means (all legal obviously), has trading history of a dead exchange (MtGox) and so on. The client is then trapped with this 1 BTC and needs a cashout structure. This client will need to pass an audit of the coins in order to check that everything is legit and prove him a banking structure and source of funds documentation.

This person shouldn’t be sending emails to a bunch of lawyers about how he owns 1 BTC with no KYC with your full dox for security reasons. Their emails may be hacked and now you are a target. Or the lawyer/firm may have an audit and now your 1 BTC ownerships shows up here. Think long term. 1 BTC may not be a lot now, but within 5, 10, 20 years? Do you want your IP and dox attached to this communication? Even mentioning you own any BTC without encryption in the process (including IP) is not a good idea, let alone next to your dox, because these records may be hacked eventually. It is already enough risk dealing with serious exchanges with KYC/AML, even they get hacked, let alone sending a bunch of screening emails to different lawyers. The more different people you send this information, the higher chance there is a leak of your dox, IP address + “hey I have BTC” message.

What you want is first find the right lawyer and if they give you a good solution and everything sounds legit then you escalate the relationship with them. Hope it makes sense.

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No reputable lawyer wants you to send your tax records before they even speak with you about what you expect from their services, etc. Usually all they want up front is a brief overview of your situation so they know going into it if it even makes sense for them to take you on or if they should e.g. refer you elsewhere.

“Help needed with source of funds documentation for long-term cryptocurrency holdings without original sources available to provide their records” is something that should be enough to get you on the phone with someone in the example you gave. Then after that point and you are sure you will be working with them you send them all your records.

Once you’re working with them you need to send them whatever is relevant to your case. That’s why they’re there and your communications are extremely well protected legally against disclosure.

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5

I know a first screening with a lawyer does not need specific details, my main point was that this:

Is already too much info to be attached to your IP address. You disclosed you own cryptocurrency since a long time ago, which means the value is probably relevant. While this data is reasonably protected by law, it depends on where you live, but there’s also the problem of their emails being hacked, or a client of them being investigated for something and then they get a raw dump of all emails and your email is there. Let’s say that you send this to a number of lawyers and none of them sound convincing (it’s not uncommon to get like 5 different interpretations of the law for the same situation) and you end up not sure about things and decide to just keep holding the funds until laws improve or there is a better opportunity in general. You sent to a bunch of lawyers that you own these funds coupled with your IP and name so you are now not sleeping as relaxed since (while unlikely) there does exist a scenario when your email can end up in someone else’s hand for some reason.

Depends on jurisdiction. Also like I said there’s always the risk of a leak. Look at how many exchanges and enterprises have been leaked with people’s infos. Hardware wallet manufacturers’ files got leaked and now people have the full dox of the owners plus the info of knowing they own hardware wallets. Great. Now you are constantly worried about some $5 wrench armed fella showing up.

6

Under what threat model could sharing this level of information with a lawyer who is bound by strict confidentiality rules possibly be harmful?

So sue the lawyer for failing to adequately protect your data.

A few things:

  1. The lawyer’s communications with the client under investigation are privileged and would not be able to be disclosed to investigators
  2. Even if they were, discovery would be strictly limited to their communications with the lawyer, not yours.

In no world is an investigation into your lawyer’s other clients giving investigators a right to see an unrelated client’s emails with the same lawyer.

I’m sorry but if sending “Help needed with source of funds documentation for long-term cryptocurrency holdings without original sources available to provide their records” to a couple lawyers to get feelers for who you want to work with affects your sleep at night, and I really don’t mean this as an insult at all, I recommend you speak to a mental health professional. This is way beyond normal privacy protection concerns and genuinely sounds like you might be dealing with an anxiety disorder.

I’m fairly sure attorney client privilege exists with strong protections in basically every country where you tax records for cryptocurrency is something you would need to be thinking about.

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Hah! Wouldn’t count on it…

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I am dealing with lawyers right now. Here’s what I can tell you about my very limited experience.

I USE MY REAL NAME

I’ve used my real name with an alias address or a Proton address. It can be seen in the display and signature of my emails. If my name is Dominique Pearson, I might just use Dom P. or D. Pearson as my name. But I won’t use a fake name.

Unless I am contacting a lawyer just to ask general questions, like I would if I was asking random lawyers on Reddit, or someone in another country, I am using my real name.

WHY I DON’T REACH OUT ANONYMOUSLY

Slow / No Response

I had considered contacting lawyers anonymously, but from my experience, if you’re coming with a real case, a lot of lawyers and businesses in general, including doctors, either don’t answer their emails when contacted for the first time by a stranger, or are super slow to answer because they don’t know you.

Calling is faster

The fastest way to reach them and schedule an appointment, even a phone appointment, is by calling.

Like journalists, lawyers don’t understand your use of privacy, unless you’re high profile.

Again, this is from my very limited and localized experience.

IMO, a lawyer might not feel compelled to answer you if you contact them anonymously. What I mean is, they might initially reply, but if they deem your purpose uninteresting, they will not appreciate your use of anonymity or even privacy.

My experience with journalists

Although it is not exactly the same, I have contacted several investigative journalists and media organizations anonymously by using an alias address and fake name. The first question I ask them is if they have Signal or Proton Mail. It’s literally in the subject line.

Most of them don’t, which surprises me. Many suggest I use WhatsApp (!). What usually happens is, they either are on private platforms and send me their details, or they aren’t, and they join it to talk to me. Then we talk, and when I tell them about the case I’m bringing them, which is important, they lose interest.

My speculation is that the journalists I have interacted with think I’m bringing them the scoop of the century when they see the request of cloak and dagger via Proton/Signal. But when they realize the issue I bring is not “sexy”, they quickly lose interest, even though it is important and completely in their wheelhouse. Many of them promised to get back to me and never did. Some didn’t even reply after they shared their Proton address with me and I emailed them.

Most lawyers are not used to using Proton Mail and Signal.

The point I am trying to make is that from my experience, at least in my location, lawyers, doctors, and journalists alike, act like your use of basic privacy tools like Proton Mail and Signal need to be justified by the nature of your case. Especially if it’s going to inconvenience them. If you’re a regular middle class grandma that just wants to update her will most lawyers you go to, are unlikely to accept your request to communicate on Signal to speak over the phone.

I’ve never tried asking a lawyer to join Signal so we can text or speak, but if I did, I am pretty sure they would be reluctant to and suggest that WhatsApp is fine. Unless you or your case are high profile like Edward Snowden, they don’t seem to understand this basic request for communicating privately.

If you’re already a client, it’s easier for them to understand.*

You’re paying them so they should be more inclined, but even then it’s not a given.
If you’re not paying what is big bucks to them, they will have some reservations.

FINAL THOUGHTS:

I typically use an email alias when trying to contact someone anonymously. If you have a real case to bring, and not just general questions, go for it. Reach out anonymously. But understand that some lawyers may not take kindly to it if it’s not a big case to them. Again, this is my very limited experience dealing with a few lawyers, including those that work at non-profits.

The last advice I have is a question to everyone, as I am not sure which option is best, even though I lean on one more than the other.

When you email someone anonymously, do you let them know right away that you are doing so, if at all?

Part of me feels guilty when I anonymously contact say, a healthcare organization, with a fake name, and give them real details about my personal life and healthcare needs, and never reveal that I am using a fake name. In cases like these, I often feel compelled to tell them from the start that Jordan is not my real name, and that I am using it for privacy. I would feel the same if I was dealing with a lawyer that I planned to hire.

I have no qualms about not revealing my name is fake when contacting most businesses that I will never encounter physically.

I feel like if you are likely to reveal your real identity eventually, it could be perceived as rude to not tell them right away. Unless your case is high profile, of course. But it’s up to you.

4 Likes
9

Unfortunately, the real world doesn’t work like that. Good luck retaining a good lawyer if you behave like that. I’ve had experience dealing with and retaining lawyers, and I don’t think your approach will work.

Edit: something wrong with the forum as I was responding to the OP (first post).

10

Maybe in Russia.

11

No guilt on my side.
I don’t trust any company to keep my personal info safe, it being greedy corpo or small business.

Hence everybody has the same treatment: businesses, organizations, friends, family.

Once you understand that your personal stuff being out there can be from any of those you really feel less remorse considering the non-disclosure given the consequences.

12

You might not have a choice if you need a lawyer.

Have you done any international travel before? ID has to be given and questions have to be answered honestly. Tough to be private under those situations.

13

I completely understand. Just to be clear, anonymous contact with fake names is my default.
Me using my real name is the exception. I rarely feel guilty, but the times that I do, I think it’s because there’s the possibility that I might have or want to eventually reveal my identity, and I am afraid that the other person might take offense if they find out I used a fake name.

This is why I asked if in those kinds of circumstances, it’s better to reveal right away that you are using a fake name, even if you don’t plan to reveal your real one. That’s what I did with an organization I recently got in touch with. They don’t know my real name, but they know that I am using a fake one because I told them.

14

I feel like most people would understand and be compassionate if you have something you deem precious enough to protect by cloaking yourself. :rat: :heart_decoration:
If they don’t, eh you have plenty of other people on the planet to talk to, so feel free to move on. :joy:

Interesting middle-ground. I’d assume this would be the worst one tho.
Like

Hey, I’m lying to you. Cannot say how but I do. :slight_smile:

Quite evil if we’re being honest. :rofl:

15

I am sure you’ve read stories on Reddit, where the author of a post is upfront about the fact that they have changed some details about their story to protect their and other people’s privacy.

They’ll tell you about what happened with Bob and Catherine, with the understanding that that is not their real name. They will also tell you it took place in Rome, Italy, with the understanding that it did not take place there.

I am not saying there is no value in concealing the fact that your presented identity is not real. There absolutely is. I do it 99% of the time.

What I am saying is that in some situations, if you are not upfront about the fact that some of your details are fake, you will find yourself in situations where people will offer their help precisely because they are in the same location that you are pretending to be. They will think their advice is helpful, not knowing it’s useless because you’re not actually in Italy. That’s just one example.

Another could be that you said you were a woman, but you’re actually a man, and someone suggests you get in contact with a local Italian organization that specifically caters to women in your situation. You can’t take that advice because you’re not a woman, and you’re not in Italy.

You get what I’m saying?

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Yes I do see what you mean.
Not sure it’s exactly the same.
What I mean is: concealing somebody’s name is fine, but being open about saying to somebody in front of you that you use a fake name is next level (and different IMO).

Because it’s not about protecting some people (or yourself) but more about deceiving the person in front of you?
I mean, not sure it matters to a lot of people but I would imagine that some people dislike having discussions with people known to be liars 24/7: it’s draining, pointless and you can never figure out if they’re lying about the current topic or actually real.
You know like those 12yo kids at school that used to pretend smoking and doing ho*kers. 300% BS but eh, that’s just a natural way of growing I guess. :joy:

I would also kinda consider it disrespectful.
I’d also say that most of the time, people can kinda guess if you give a very off-name.
Like if you look at me, you won’t think that I look like a [insert your local name if far from EU], yet I used that last time and the person in front of me clearly understood that it was a made-up name.
Wasn’t needed to state the obvious, yet the person just respected and played the role until the end with no issue.

It’s a fair status-quo where:

  • a person forces you to give a name
  • you unwillingly spit one
  • they understand it’s fake but can fill in the box with it
  • you’re half-irritated but get the service you asked for in exchange

Nobody’s harmed, mutual respectful grown-up dance in some way..
Same with email aliases pretty much. Phone numbers are even easier, just don’t F up the amount of digits because then it will be obvious that’s you’re winging it. :joy_cat:

That is indeed a real problem, very fair.
I guess you need to go in person or ask friends in that case?

Gender is also quite a big deal when it comes down differences in services.
Blood type or previous surgeries could also be big concerns.

Meanwhile, someone being Scorpio or Capricorn is…eh whatever. :rofl:

But even here on this forum, sometimes you ask questions and the solutions can be very US-centric.
Yet, when some people do not want to disclose their actual country of residence, it becomes hard to recommend a bank, some VOIP or ways to get around the government’s systems since those are usually very specific/local to a country. :sweat_smile:

17

I am not sure if you literally mean in person when you say in “in front of you”, but if you did, that’s not the type of interactions I am talking about. My examples were specific to online interactions, whether it is via social media or email.

Not sharing personal detail about you is about protecting your privacy. Admitting upfront that you are using a fake name and other fake details is partly about preventing people from wasting their time if they were going to try and help you with information that cannot be useful to you.

It’s also about the fact that if there is small chance that this person and I might meet, I don’t want them to be upset with me if admit after months or years or interaction that the name I gave them was fake. Again, the situations that fall into this scenario for me are relatively rare, but it is something I often wonder about. There is only one organization I reached out to, to whom I admitted up front that I was using a fake name, just in case there is some future in which we would collaborate IRL.

Just to be clear, I’m talking about using a fake name. Not using usernames. When you use a username like Charmed Hyena, people know that’s not your real name. You don’t need to tell them. I use names like Jordan Smith. That’s an actual name.

Compartmentalization is key. If I am Dutch, and I don’t want Reddit or other Redditors to know that I am Dutch, I am never going to talk about my Dutch experience with my main Reddit account. What I might do, if I need help with Dutch things, is create a second Reddit account, just for Dutch stuff. And with that account I share more details about my Dutch life, and make sure it’s not connected to the general stuff I share with my other Reddit account.

The trick is with compartmentalization is that I don’t want to have too many accounts on the same platform just to isolate different parts of my life and identity. If I have or need more than 3, it becomes too complicated.

PG is alright. Reddit is very US centric. People often assume you are American by offering exclusively American solutions, when you said nothing to indicate so. I get annoyed when non-Americans with clearly non-American accents offer exclusively American solutions without specifying so. Naomi Brockwell, who is Australian, but lives in the US has done this a couple of times, but she is more conscientious now.

IMHO, I think that if you’re not American and live in the US, and have significant platform, you should advocate for solutions that are available globally. What I mean is, if you’re gonna promote Privacy.com which is US only, why not also use your voice to nudge them and other privacy companies to offer the same service globally. Your voice matters. Same if there is a service that is exclusive to Europe, or just some EU countries.

18

Oh okay, nvm then. :relieved_face:

If it’s online, very different situation so feel free to just dismiss my paragraph entirely. :+1:t2:
I was focused on the IRL haha. :slight_smile:

wait…your real name IRL is not Purple Dime?? :sob:
Damn, got me on that one. :joy:

Some people just don’t have a Jordan Smith “face” is what I meant above.
I look like an average EU white male and not from south America or Japan for example. :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

Very much yes. :+1:t2:

Most of her recommendations are still for the US market. :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

Yes in theory.
In practice, it can be quite hard to get through all the cross-countries regulations, taxes, logistics or whatever problems might arise given specific products. :melting_face:

I do agree on trying to widespread something as much as possible tho. :+1:t2:

19

The discussion was interesting, but I think it got a bit derailed. This is what I really wanted to ask:

If you send an email using Tor with Protonmail for instance, is it ok if it includes your name (redacting your surname) and perhaps a phone number? For example, to an accountant or lawyer. Could the email be blocked because of the IP? should I use a regular VPN instead?
I am not a technical person, I work in finance, I just know that as a general rule of thumb it’s good to not use your IP next to confidential data.

Note that I have no problem revealing my name, I just want to know if on the technical level I should Tor or VPN basically.