Several of my friends use devices which are always listening and broadcasting their location. Most of the time I don’t notice unless someone speaks into a smartwatch or asks about wifi.
How do you address invasive technology being brought into your private space by guests or tradesmen?
An inverse scenario is my friend has Amazon surveillance equipment all over his house. He didn’t even install it, so who knows who has still has access? I believe it does record and must be linked to an account he controls. I don’t feel able to speak freely while being recorded.
Have you tried speaking with your friends about your concerns? That’s step one.
If they are your guests, then you have the rights to your “house rules”. But since they are friends, just talk to them. Make clear your concerns, needs, and wants.
Yes he called on Signal seconds after I posted and agreed to unplug his cameras when I’m around. He also says audio recording is disabled. But he wears a smartwatch everywhere he goes and connects his phone to the car Bluetooth while we’re talking. That’s a separate issue.
If we are close friends these are only small hurdles. New friends or aquantences are what I’m concerned with. We can be arrested for jokes in this country. Making friends who work for the police squirm is part of the fun
But in all seriousness I don’t want AI listening to my conversations and Meta logging everywhere my aquantiences go. Some use Google location sharing ‘for safety.’ I can’t relax while this is going on.
It’s clear that you are uncomfortable with your friends bringing invasive devices into your own home. However it’s difficult to suggest what to do in this situation without some more information. Some relevant questions are: What are your security needs? Are those friends close, or are you willing to risk your relationships with them? Do they live with you or are they guests? What are the power dynamics between you and them? Do they have a need to bring those devices into your house? What are their technical knowledge and politics?
I would politely discuss the topic with them. Clearly state your house rules and that you are uncomfortable with them bringing in invasive devices. If they demonstrate understanding and acknowledge they will follow your rules, great. If they accuse you of being paranoid, weird or a criminal, refuse to follow your rules or otherwise disrespect your need/desire for security, it may be time to cut ties with them.
However, the problem is much much wider. What will you do when you visit those friends’ houses (assuming you don’t live with them) or when you meet them outside your home? Unless those friends understand and respect your needs, you’ll be much less likely to be able to enforce your boundaries in those settings. If their homes contain invasive technologies, you may need to avoid visiting their homes. If they carry invasive devices on them all the time, you may need to reconsider your relationships with them. But unfortunately most normies in developed nations carry invasive technologies on them all the time or have them in their homes, thus unfortunately you’ll quickly find yourself alone, cutting ties with most normies and unable to enter any public space where normies are present.
I will be honest. I don’t think you can do must about it, it is a losing battle. You will probably just isolate yourself from your friends, family and aquantences. Most people will just think you’re weird or paranoid.
I think the best thing you can do is to make your home more secure like make a guess access point on your router that blocks most known big tech services, it isn’t bullet proof. People can simply just use cellular but what can you do.
Outside your home you can’t do must besides advocate for more secure and privacy and FOSS solutions.
Sometimes you can also force people to use more privacy friendly solutions. I forced 2 coworkers to use Signal group call because they know that I don’t have social media so I couldn’t use WhatsApp. We often add new people to the group for teaching. But we are only 3 main guys. I never really given a privacy or security argument for using Signal just that I don’t have social media lol.
Nobody gets access to my trusted LAN without thorough vetting & approval. They get to join a separate VLAN for Chinese spyware & other untrusted devices, where they cant see any other network devices. Follow other general security guidelines, like disabling WiFi & Bluetooth on your devices when not in active use, your devices should remain reasonably insulated & secure
There isnt much evidence to suggest cell phones or watches actively record & broadcast audio to the same extent as, say, Amazon Alexa. Unless youre discussing deeply subversive topics, or youre a high risk individual, I wouldnt consider this a threat vector
I dont sweat location leakage through friends devices in this way, as cellular networks have already pinged my location & associated my friends with me. If you set up your stack to make sure your devices keep location private, I dont feel theres much additional risk by associating with friends. A more stringent threat model would use airplane mode + wifi only; the need to adhere to something this strict would probably preclude any visitors into my home
You dont have standing to dictate threat models as a guest in another person’s home - at least, that’s how I feel. Consider the space generally insecure, act accordingly
I don’t allow access to my local network, so technical threats aren’t that high.
I have a small number of close friends who do what is asked of them. They would never accuse me of being paranoid or over the top. Anyone who isn’t a close friend of mine can be let go. The problem is these are mutual friends of a close friend.
If we need technology I’ll provide it. But adults have responsibilities such as taking a work call. Would it be too far to ask they leave phones in another room? I feel like that is a suitable compromise but the phones can still hear us.
I’m really concerned about Chinese apps. They have agreed not to use live translators without objection. I should find out if they have Western operating systems or phones purchased in China.
Voice activated assistants and smartwatches are my primary concern here. With Chinese language activation who knows what combination of sounds will trigger it?
If I had it my way such devices would require a button press to activate that feature.
My router is reasonably secure and I would switch it off. Claiming I don’t know the wifi password should defeat persistent requests to connect. Most phones have 5G on all the time anyway. I would also explain that taking photos isn’t allowed. In my home this isn’t difficult, at least among friends. The challange is aquantences who don’t know me so well.
Tell them it’s house rules. Politely ask them to turn it off unless it’s a medical requirement. Refusal or rudeness means you don’t invite them back. But I also understand the careful social dance.
Phones off like in a classroom or school music recital? They might respond well to that. I can pitch it as ‘phone-free time’ instead of ‘privacy obsessive insane asylum. ‘
I usually am just too tired and worn down to ask people to modify their tech behavior for me anymore. For closer friends, I explain that phones and technology interfere with quality time and sometimes ask them to leave it in their car or turn off and put in a Faraday bag if they think they might need it while visiting my house. I’ve tried to normalize taking a walk or going outside and leaving the electronics inside. Luckily none of my close friends are wearing smart watches. Closer friends know my threat model and the precautions I take in my personal life. I’ve explained to most of them that I don’t feel comfortable talking about certain things around their devices. Some friends understand and some think I’m kinda nutty, but most of them have removed smart home listening devices and doorbell cams, which is a decent start in my opinion. If I’m around people I know less well, I sometimes just say “hello Google" or “hey Siri” so those devices might trigger and I know what stuff is around with an active mic. At the end of the day, I know the security of my devices, if I get recorded by someone else’s device at least it’s one step removed from being recorded by a device linked to me personally (which isn’t happening in my life). It’s not perfect, but we can’t achieve perfection in today’s world.
You seem particularly concerned about Chinese tech and voice-activated devices. I too feel very uncomfortable about these kinds of technologies: smartphones, smart TVs, smart watches, home assistants, doorbell cameras, surveillance cameras, computers with Windows installed, modern vehicles and many other invasive devices people typically carry or add to their homes.
Sorry I wasn’t clear. I meant your security and not just that of your devices and networks. What habits do your friends have that could put you at risk? Of course you don’t need to answer publicly online this question nor the other questions, I just wanted to describe what kind of information could be useful to refine how you approach your friends about this problem.
The “phone-free time” idea and these ideas may be good to suggest to your friends. The more you and your friends can normalize private device-free interactions the better off society will be.
Additionally, smartphones and other microphone-bugged devices should be placed distant by several yards, placed behind/inside an acoustically-insulative barrier or surrounded by sufficient noise, else they can pick up people’s voices. When I used a commercial microphone to record video, I was surprised how clearly I could pick up colleagues’ mumbles/whispers even when they sat 5 yards away from me.
Intense take but one I do happily stand on: don’t invite friends or others that don’t give a single dime about privacy. Keep them at bay and put their phone into a Faraday bag once they cross your vicinity.
That way no photos taken of your home, babies or whatever. Might also help them focus on the moment rather than scroll on their small screens.
IF you want to grant WiFi access, yes make it a guest network and let it be very isolated from everything else on your network.
Might lose a few friends that way, but maybe that wouldn’t be a huge loss to begin with.
If you’re off from work, you should put a bit more effort into “being in the moment” and not being constantly interrupted by work. Sounds more like a work/life balance issue to solve on their side tbh.
I guess there is no reason to invite such people into your home in the first place.
Tbh when you have only 2 genuinely great and best friends [also they’re close friends, and for anonymity reasons I am only referring to them as “Great” and “Best”] on the line it can be challenging if not impossible and I think as in many discussions has said, discussing digital privacy with “normies” is a challenge.
And tbh some things can be partly my fault rather than them, and maybe careless thinking but strategic on my part I guess (and I’ve already been accused for buying a phone as a gift that in my friend group we agreed that we set a budget limit of 100 from now on after I got them a tablet for my best friend which fortunately stays at their home for the most part. so even getting them a pixel cheaply enough, brand new is out of the question, not Mentioning a lot of the requirements (future proof as possible mobile gaming for example) would not have allowed for a pixel (Unless Google decides that performance is finally a priority of course)) so basically I bought them a phone imported from china as a gift, and honestly it would be hypocritical of me to tell the to put it in a faraday bag or whatever so I take the blame and just leave it as normal so I don’t sound hypocritical. (I mean put yourselves in their shoes, can you imagine buying them For Example say a Vivo, OnePlus, Samsung, whatever as a gift only to tell them “when you’re at my home you put your phone in a faraday bag”. It literally is hypocrisy at its finest like Bro you bought it with your own money, you knew the risks)
I think the fortunate light is this:
My best friend who we have very close contact agreed to get a Pixel and put GrapheneOS on which I highly respect and we already split the proton family subscription. Though despite telling them to do it as soon as possible rather than being stuck with an EOL Xiaomi phone to this day, they’re still insisting on buying it in 2027, I tried that’s all I’ll say.
However for my great one it’s a bit complicated and I’m just trying to find the right time to get them into a privacy journey, probably like my best, start with proton and then eventually and hopefully with I guess Stock Android sideloading being clamped it may make them consider a pixel with GrapheneOS too, patience and persistence is key. [Check with banking compatibility etc. of course (and they do refuse to use an iPhone so it is out of the question)]
I think the takeaway is the same I’ve said before and people here seems to have never understood, Nuances and variables matter
This is an entire set of conditions already. Some things should have priority and you cannot have everything I guess.
Every “gaming phone” with good performance will be a chinese one because they go hard on the amazing hardware for a bargain.
Guess I never got hooked on the mobile gachas, lucky me.
But yes, my phone is only for work-related stuff. I do have a console or a gaming PC for entertainment purposes.
If your needs are “I need to have 60 FPS during big fights in Genshin”, yeah it will be hard to go on a privacy journey anytime soon.
Love it!
