I originally had posted this as a reply, but I’m moving it to it’s own topic so as not to hijack that topic more than I already have.
I’m not as extreme as some here, but more than most people. I use GrapheneOS, have followed some of MB’s guides for setting up my tech, generally try to stay away from big tech, and generally try to keep my personal information (name, address, etc.) private when making purchases or using services. My future spouse cares for privacy but it is a lower priority for her. She uses Google and Apple products, has a recent car, is on social media, etc.
So, a question for those privacy enthusiasts who are married or otherwise live with someone less willing to make sacrifices for privacy than you: How do you justify the costs of time, energy, and convenience required for living more privately when your privacy is partially dependent on your spouse? As well, how do you find balance in privacy practices and decide what is worth doing?
An example to illustrate:
Say we go somewhere together. I drive my 20 year old car with no telemetry. When we get 5 miles from the house, I take my GrapheneOS device out of airplane mode. I use Magic Earth to navigate (which is decent, but nowhere near as robust as Apple/Google maps). My future spouse, however, has her iPhone in her pocket the whole time, meaning we can be easily tracked by her cell service provider and Apple (both of whom know her real identity) using cell towers, IP, and/or location services. Similarly, next time we go somewhere, she drives in her new car, which connects to cell towers and transmits our every move to the manufacturer.
Big tech gets nothing (or little) directly from me but plenty from her. Since we’re married, we share a lot of information, and they get a lot of info about our family through her. I’m now both inconvenienced by my practices and not private due to hers. There are limits to what measures will be useful if they are only taken by me and not her, as well as limits to what it would be reasonable to ask of her.
Are you sure your threat model calls for this? It seems incredibly inconvenient and frankly ineffective if your spouse isn’t willing to do the same. You’re just making life harder for yourself and expecting them to do the same. At some point, you’ll also crash and come back here making a forum post about how privacy is exhausting. OP said it was just an example.
This would be a good starting point.
Essentially, just go for the low hanging fruit and not “we have to turn on airplane mode before entering the house so they don’t know where we live”.
The low hanging fruit in this case would be stuff like:
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Migrating from Google Chrome to Brave (you don’t have to immediately jump to a recommendation such as Mullvad browser).
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Using a dedicated password manager and enabling 2FA for their accounts.
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Helping them be more mindful of permissions they give to apps on their iPhone.
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Reducing social media usage, or if not possible, helping them ensure that no sensitive data is ever posted. (Informing them of how toxic social media is could be an avenue to reach this step)
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Setting up NextDNS for them to block ads and telemetry from websites and apps.
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Reviewing privacy settings for existing accounts.
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Deleting unnecessary apps and accounts.
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Turning on Advanced Data Protection for iPhones.
Basically, all the simple stuff that seems incredibly trivial. Realistically, these trivial things are essential when dealing with someone not willing to go to the lengths you would go to. These steps would maximise your spouse’s privacy and security gains for little to no effort, anything more is usually just increasing effort for slowly diminishing returns.
Edit: Another point I’d like to add is you should walk your spouse through what you are doing and what it accomplishes. If you just remove unnecessary permissions from apps on their phone by yourself, eventually, as more apps are downloaded, the same unnecessary permissions will be granted again. You would have to repeat the process. However, if you inform them about the permissions and discuss with them what apps they think need which permissions, they will become more mindful by default and not go granting every app their entire photo album. This should apply for every step.
I grappled with this when I started my degoogling/ privacy-sec journey. Although I followed a good number of practices recommended by MB I gradually weaned off to a sane (to me atleast) level. I still assess my model based on my circumstances: full-time job, soon-to-be parent, responsibilities, commitments and having a partner. My privacy practices are now, nowhere near what it used to be or not half way close to MB’s recommendations due to the above factors. I have reached a stage where I am only focusing on the things I can control. I use a custom ROM currently with no location services enabled unless absolutely necessary. There are some limitations when it comes to using some apps - like banking which just won’t work. I am prepared to switch to normal phone if the need arises in the future but I will stick to what I have learned and going with the current setup without compromising my privacy. I and my partner have always used Signal even when we were using an iOS device. My partner, although not privacy conscious, has recently heeded my advice and switched to Brave, NextDNS, VPN, Bitwarden, Adguard, ente Auth, but still chooses to use Google and Apple apps for the most part because it is simply convenient. Look forward to having them use ADP as well. Thankfully, they are not into social media and doesn’t have an account in anything except Youtube. They also consider their mobile device to be primarily a browsing device and an e-reader. They also work in tech (cybersec) however thinks that their life is too short to fine tune everything to micro level in personal life but thinks otherwise when it comes to work. They know this and that’s a compromise I have accepted.
There was a time in the not-so-distant past where I went overboard with my privacy setup and I crashed and it was difficult. I should have taken it slowly. I decided to go back to using iOS during this time as it was simply EASY. I went about my life until the beginning of this year when I installed a custom ROM back in my Android phone and started using it as a secondary device and few months ago moved completely to the custom ROM. As you can see, taking the time helped but I also realise this time is a luxury and is not something that would be available down the road and it might even cost me in terms of money. I understand that I may not always have the time to tinker with devices like I have in the past. I have a small setup in place with bare essential apps for a custom ROM now and I also have one in place for iOS (should I ever want to switch back in the future due to all the factors above). I also always aim for a minimum number of apps, with less permissions be it any device. In my Android device, I currently have more apps than I want. I look forward to bringing it down further based on my use cases. A minimal setup with less permissions and more usability has worked fine for me.
It’s not reasonable to ask others to adjust to our setup when it involves investing a lot of time and compromising usability. This aspect is sometimes not fully addressed in some privacy model discussions. Switching to a different app/service might be easy (considering the time and resource one has to put in) generally but not for everyone.
I use Whatsapp to communicate with my parents who are overseas. Despite being savvy with tech products, they refuse to use Signal and prefer WA for the convenience it offers in keeping touch with their loved ones. For me, WA is one of the easiest ways to contact them and this is why it is a is a compromise I am so willing to make.
I don’t actually do this. I was just using it as an example of, as you said, a practice that would be fairly pointless if it’s just me doing it.
Thanks for the tips on the low hanging fruit and teaching along the way. I’ll try implementing some of these.
A great point. I think it would be a good idea to make a list of priorities including what I’d be willing to give up.
It’s a tough situation. I believe it’s reasonable to ask them to not share data with companies that pertains you and you dont want shared. Meaning - no googling personal stuff w/o vpn/tor, no storing sensitive things on gdrive/icloud, no alexa or similar tech. IMO, location data collection is also very sensitive but unless your SO posts on social media that you 2 are on a trip, it may not be 100% obvious that you’re going together, as long as you already almost never use cell data. You can also just leave your phone at home, turned on and without airplane mode.
Once I got my privacy set up implemented, I turned to my inner circle and helped them become more private as well. It protects myself.
Honestly, just be totally consistent and up front about your values. Maybe share some of your threat model.
I can’t have any liabilities or loose ends in my inner circle.
I recently upgraded to the Proton Duo plan to achieve more privacy by helping my partner to switch away from google. She doesn’t really care about privacy, but she was willing to do it since in her eyes “the apps do the same” and I explained to her why it’s important to me and showed her the convenience benefits if she chooses to also use proton suite (Better calendar sharing, better password sharing)
Car is a difficult one with no practical answer I afraid.
For the rest I did / doing the followings for my family members:
- Ask what they are using
- Search for more private alternative and compare the features,
- Offer good alternatives to them and if they agree, migrate for them
- Ask for permission, and modify their Google/ Apple account and phone settings
- If they use social media, send them news on privacy issues and send them tips on privacy settings
The key is always to make the transition friction-free, as long as things work as they should, most people don’t really care what exactly they are using.
Over time, I got her to make some more privacy-friendly choices:
- Firefox instead of Chrome
- uBlock Origin (Firefox) or Adguard (Safari)
- DDG instead of Google (I think after a few months she switched back though but at least uses it without logging in)
- Disable the crappy default Google apps on her Samsung phone (she later switched to an iPhone which I guess is slightly better)
- Install the Mullvad VPN app on her phone, with the adblocking enabled, and set the server to the country we’re in (otherwise it creates too much friction)
- Use Signal for chats with her
- Switch her cloud from Onedrive to kDrive (this was the most effort to migrate and I’m not quite happy as it’s not E2EE but I also think that Mega/Filen/Tresorit/Proton have too many features and/or are too expensive)
Most of these changes are very straightforward and don’t really have any usability downsides. I’m not going to bother her beyond that, like forcing her to use a Pixel with GrapheneOS or making her stop using Whatsapp or getting her to switch from Hotmail to Protonmail or from MacOS to Linux.
It’s good enough for my threat level.
If shared bank accounts and baby monitors are in the future I would tilt my efforts toward physical and digital security and away from privacy.
Like a chain both are only as strong as the weakest link that breaks easier when stressed after weeks of sleep deprivation.
Implementing a password manager and applying the stronger forms of 2FA would be my priority.
During household formation freezing credit with the 5 major agencies can be inconvienent but its easy to lift and is a primary security step.
As is staking your SSN’s with the SSA and IRS.