Can you use Windows and care about privacy?

[anonymous423]

@anon79740302

I’ve “re-explained” my original comment several posts ago

lol no you didn’t. You reiterated your argument to underscore that you assume people have multiple devices to use.

@anon79740302

To reiterate what I said: people who really care about their privacy wouldn’t use a proprietary OS as their main one in this day and age (with extra emphasis for those who haven’t had enough coffee recently).

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@anon79740302

unless they decide to actually join the conversation.

Read the posts above. There are multiple users giving their reasons for sticking with Windows.

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@anon79740302

Go troll elsewhere.

@anon79740302

Instead of responding with a personal attack wrapped into a thought-terminating cliché

Oh how the mighty have fallen… …

[No_Name]

Yeah, I’m kind of in the same boat. I’ve got Windows 10 pro, although I don’t ever use it. Only reason I have it is because I couldn’t get Linux to install on my PC for some reason. I ended up getting an nvme drive, putting it inside an enclosure, and installed Linux that way. I’m thinking I should probably update the internall ssd to Window 11 though just so it’s there, I don’t know….

[anon92397788]

@anonymous423

No. How big do you think PG is? It is much more common for someone to care about privacy and have no clue what to do or be tricked by the tons of other less reputable privacy sites.

We are on PG so I assuming that those saying they care about privacy while staying on Windows are following PG’s Window’s hardening guide. If they are technical enough to follow a guide, they can run Linux. Most newbie Linux stuff is just googling answers and following tutorials.

@anonymous423

You have missed the point. It is not binary. People do not just choose convenience over privacy most of the time. You are throwing out any possible reason to use Windows as a convenience and creating a false dichotomy where you either choose to not use Windows are you care more about convenience then privacy.

Again, I didn’t say delete Windows, I said dual boot.

Here’s a better question that gets to my frustration with the responses: what are you doing to reduce your dependence on Windows? Dual boot? Learn via WSL (which is now heavily supported by Windows)? Taking a Linux Course? Or none of the above?

IMO the excuses highlight how Windows are able to do continually encroach on your rights as consumers. When you decide that the cost of switching is too high, yet take zero effort in reducing your dependence in Windows, Microsoft knows it can treat you however they want. They are doing the same with X-Box users and the price increases.

A good counter-example in the news today is Synology backtracking on draconian changes because the community pushed back and stopped buying their products. If you don’t vote with your wallet/data, then you hasten the enshittification because you are indirectly/directly supporting it with your money/data.

[ThePrivacyDad]

@anonymous423

@anon79740302

To reiterate what I said: people who really care about their privacy wouldn’t use a proprietary OS as their main one

This is a statement of privilege that assumes everyone has multiple devices at their disposal.

Or don’t have jobs.

[anonymous423]

@anon92397788

Here’s a better question that gets to my frustration with the responses: what are you doing to reduce your dependence on Windows? Dual boot? Learn via WSL (which is now heavily supported by Windows)? Taking a Linux Course? Or none of the above?

What is this? You and @anon79740302 get to decide which reasons are worthy of staying on Windows.

@anon92397788

yet take zero effort in reducing your dependence in Windows

Go back and take a look at the knowledge base if you are so stringent about following what PG recommends and read up on threat modelling.. Not everyone has the same privacy requirements you or @anon79740302 do. This does not mean they do not care.

@anon92397788

Again, I didn’t say delete Windows, I said dual boot.

see Microsoft triples down and blocks even more Microsoft Account bypasses on Windows 11 — an online account is non-negotiable - #33

@anon92397788

If you don’t vote with your wallet/data, then you hasten the enshittification because you are indirectly/directly supporting it with your money/data.

The fact that you are blaming consumers for enshittification tells me you are not truly understanding the concept. Regardless of what a consumer does, companies will always attempt to enshitify (especially ones like Microsoft that are to big to care) if given the chance. While the term is new, the practice is age old.

[Anvil]

@PurpleDime

I don’t have the technical skills

Not trying to invalidate your perspective because it is scary to try something entirely new like this, but in my experience, once it’s installed, the tech illiterate people I know do perfectly fine with linux unless they have very specific niche software needs that aren’t available on Linux. Many things are honestly far more intuitive than windows or macos (e.g. software installation).

@PurpleDime

I also worry that some of the apps I use every day won’t be available there.

This should be easy to check on the software developer’s website

@PurpleDime

if I had a 2nd computer I could try it on, so that if I mess up I don’t lose anything.

If you’re really interested, you could buy a cheap external drive and install linux to that. This is how I first started. Essentially zero risk involved because you can always unplug the drive and go back to the os running on your main drive if you really mess something up or you realize it isn’t working out.

[anon730370]

@mika

The hardware and software I rely upon for my work (self-employed) runs only on Windows or MacOS. Additionally, the hardware and software I rely upon for my hobbies and personal enrichment activities run only on Windows or MacOS.

Would you mind explicitly naming one or more of these pieces of hardware or software?

@mika

I did spin up a Fedora VM for certain hyper sensitive tasks

Are you operating under the assumption that the host OS can’t see everything a VM does? You seem to have it backwards. If you want to run some applications privately on Linux while maintaining access to Windows, you run Windows in a VM on a Linux host.

@Spongeboob

For the record here I do care about privacy. But I also care about gaming and until gaming on Linux is more mainstream I’ll be sticking with Windows. Who’s to say because I like to game that I don’t care about my privacy too?

Would you mind explicitly naming one or more of the games you think don’t run on Linux? And if the issue is kernel-level anti-cheat, then I can definitely say you do not care that much about privacy.

@anonymous423

The fact that you are blaming consumers for enshittification tells me you are not truly understanding the concept. Regardless of what a consumer does, companies will always attempt to enshitify (especially ones like Microsoft that are to big to care) if given the chance. While the term is new, the practice is age old.

The only way to avoid the enshittification of Windows is to switch to Linux. The solution to Microsoft requiring Microsoft accounts is to switch to Linux. Although, it seems entirely pointless to care about such a requirement when it doesn’t change the efficacy of their spyware whatsoever; which is why posts like this are questioned.

[anonymous423]

@squealer0332

The only way to avoid the enshittification of Windows is to switch to Linux.

That’s why Microsoft has made sure the switching cost is enormous. Taking the high ground on these issues and ignoring the realities faced for people trying to do that is worthless. For a lot of people it’s very hard to switch out of Windows, for all sorts of reasons (users in this thread have given a bunch of examples). This is by design. To ignore that and accuse them of not caring only enshittifies the situation more.

[anon730370]

@anonymous423

To ignore that and accuse them of not caring only enshittifies the situation more.

In what way does it enshittify the situation more? There is no way to prevent your closed source OS from spying on you by trying to modify it at runtime, short of running it without internet access. So, what exactly should the response to these posts be other than “switch to Linux“? The simple fact is that they don’t care as much about privacy as they think they do because doing things like bypassing the Microsoft account requirement is nothing more than placebo.

[Spongeboob]

@squealer0332

Would you mind explicitly naming one or more of the games you think don’t run on Linux? And if the issue is kernel-level anti-cheat, then I can definitely say you do not care that much about privacy.

Yeah, I avoid anything with Kernel-level anti-cheat. I feel like a lot of people on Privacy Guides probably would too. Might rephrase that next time to “Are you aware of kernel-based anti-cheat? Do you have any games that require it?” The way you phrased that makes it look like you are assuming and setting up a point for argument rather than discussion.

Right now I am working on playing Death Stranding and Oblivion Remastered - as for as the Steam store says, these are not playable on Linux. For smaller games like R.E.P.O and Peak which are made my a small team if not one person - these are Windows only too. Likely these smaller games are going to be made for Windows only. No hope for Linux there. And giving up the ability to play these smaller and cheaper games with friends is just not something I am willing to remove.

I have a Steam Deck and am aware it runs Steam OS which is Linux based. I am also aware that Valve has built a tool within SteamOS called “Proton” which allows users to play Windows-based games on their Linux based SteamOS devices. And that they have technically released SteamOS for anyone to use if they want (see Linus Tech Tips’ video on that if you want). However, until Valve releases SteamOS intended FOR gaming PC’s, I don’t feel comfortable replacing Windows with it. It just isn’t stable and i don’t intend to be a trailblazer for this.

I’m claiming some ignorance here though. I’m no expert. Maybe there is already a tool that allows Windows games to reliably play on Linux OS that I am not aware of besides Valve’s SteamOS?

[ThePrivacyDad]

@anonymous423

@anon79740302

To reiterate what I said: people who really care about their privacy wouldn’t use a proprietary OS as their main one

This is a statement of privilege that assumes everyone has multiple devices at their disposal.

It also doesn’t acknowledge that people need to install Windows 11 for work-related purposes, as I have had to do recently.

[anon39279085]

Honestly both sides of the argument are not helping and I have distaste here with no neutral statement here, not even an agree to disagree.
(and my post I wanted to get the point across keeps getting pending, rip)

[anon92397788]

@anonymous423

see Microsoft triples down and blocks even more Microsoft Account bypasses on Windows 11 — an online account is non-negotiable - #33 by TheDoc

Resolved over a year ago

Microsoft fixes Linux boot issues on dual-boot Windows systems

@anonymous423

Not everyone has the same privacy requirements you or @Hasshu do. This does not mean they do not care.

You are correct. I presumed that a primary goal for all PG users is to avoid actively sharing data with big tech companies actively eroding their privacy.

@anonymous423

The fact that you are blaming consumers for enshittification tells me you are not truly understanding the concept.

Actually Doctorow talks about this:

Social Quitting

Companies that don’t have to worry about their users leaving — because of high switching costs and/or few competitors — can scoop up that surplus. They can pay fewer moderators to fight harassment, or spy on you more, or put more ads into your feed.
[..]
The higher the switching costs, the more the social media companies can appropriate of that surplus — that is, the worse they can make things for both advertisers and users.

As people and businesses started to switch away from the social media giants, inverse network effects set in: the people you stayed on MySpace to hang out with were gone, and without them, all the abuses MySpace was heaping on you were no longer worth it, and you left, too. Once you were gone, that was a reason for someone else to leave. The same forces that drove rapid growth drove rapid collapse.

Obviously it’s not nearly the degree of culpability as the decision makers, but it’s analogous to continuing to shop at the business that your friends are boycotting. Whether you choose to accept it or not, your individual actions indirectly determine whether Microsoft’s anti-privacy measures are profitable or not a la network effect referenced by Doctorow.

[anon730370]

@Spongeboob

The way you phrased that makes it look like you are assuming and setting up a point for argument rather than discussion.

There is an issue with me attempting to address potential counterpoints before they are given? The potential counterpoint here being an example of a category of games that doesn’t run on Linux.

@Spongeboob

I have a Steam Deck and am aware it runs Steam OS which is Linux based. I am also aware that Valve has built a tool within SteamOS called “Proton” which allows users to play Windows-based games on their Linux based SteamOS devices. And that they have technically released SteamOS for anyone to use if they want (see Linus Tech Tips’ video on that if you want). However, until Valve releases SteamOS intended FOR gaming PC’s, I don’t feel comfortable replacing Windows with it. It just isn’t stable and i don’t intend to be a trailblazer for this.

Proton is not exclusive to SteamOS. It is not even exclusive to Steam. It is merely an enhancement of Wine that is available by default in Steam on Linux, configurable per game.

@Spongeboob

Right now I am working on playing Death Stranding and Oblivion Remastered - as for as the Steam store says, these are not playable on Linux. For smaller games like R.E.P.O and Peak which are made my a small team if not one person - these are Windows only too. Likely these smaller games are going to be made for Windows only. No hope for Linux there. And giving up the ability to play these smaller and cheaper games with friends is just not something I am willing to remove.

I play R.E.P.O. all the time on Fedora. Proton compatibility for each of these games:

R.E.P.O. (Platinum)
PEAK (Platinum)
Death Stranding (Gold)
Oblivion Remastered (Platinum)

Platinum means it should run out of the box. Gold means it might require some tweaks.

Seems like a pretty weak lineup of games that prevent Linux use.

[anon39279085]

First, it is true, for many, they’re stuck on windows (I kinda am as well even if I mainly use Linux nowadays). Accusing those of “Lazy” is outright dismissive and unhelpful of their situation.
Also no, Modifying the OS just enough to get substantially more privacy as possible (O&O ShutUp10++ or privacy.sexy) IS NOT useless, in fact it is better than Micro$oft still gaining some data for not even bothering to modify.

I have to say, if you got a desktop especially or laptop and know how to get around unplugging and plugging SSDs, I do recommend the separate drive method 100%

For me I’m stuck on windows. For one it is the easiest OS to get a specific game modding started without wasting time trying to get it on Linux. And if games like NTE and Ananta decide they cant Work on Linux even after weeks of release, it only enforces that.

[_TrustyRocinante]

I do agree with this in principal, but I also run only Fedora Linux and Graphene so it’s easy for me to agree with personally.

I think this is probably the uncomfortable truth though, at least in a broad sense.

While Apple is the lesser of two proprietary OS evils, they only respect your privacy as much as it’s marketable for them.

Microsoft doesn’t have the same reputation, so they don’t really need to have higher privacy standards because it wouldn’t help their public image much anyway.

Maybe I’m huffing the Linux copium, but for strictly privacy, it really is the only reasonable option for a main OS.

Of course, security and app support are different conversations, but if we just look at privacy in isolation then using Apple or Microsoft propriety OS isn’t the best long-term option.

[mika]

@squealer0332

Would you mind explicitly naming one or more of these pieces of hardware or software?

One example: I use an Audient id44 audio interface and a number of VST software plugins to make music. Neither are fully compatible with Linux. Here’s a discussion on an audio subreddit (via RedLib frontent) about it so you don’t have to just take my word for it.

There are workarounds for some VSTs, including a software bridge. They’re not reliable, and I want to spend my leisure time making music, not troubleshooting VST bridges.

@squealer0332

Are you operating under the assumption that the host OS can’t see everything a VM does? You seem to have it backwards. If you want to run some applications privately on Linux while maintaining access to Windows, you run Windows in a VM on a Linux host.

I spun up the VM in order to install some applications that I wanted to be able to isolate from all other applications on my computer and then fully delete once I was done.

[anon730370]

@mika

I spun up the VM in order to install some applications that I wanted to be able to isolate from all other applications on my computer and then fully delete once I was done.

You can certainly isolate outside applications from being effected by what is in the VM, but it doesn’t necessarily go the other way.

If you want to protect tasks from Windows as the host OS, then it is not possible through this method.

If you want to protect tasks from misbehaving applications running on the host OS, then putting the tasks in the VM provides no better protection than if you ran them on the host OS. Unless there is something that Windows does to protect VMs run under its VM manager more than other applications.

It could definitely add more insurance to the ephemerality of the task, but that seems to be a small win compared to the potential of Windows spying on it while it’s happening.

[mika]

@squealer0332

You can certainly isolate outside applications from being effected by what is in the VM, but it doesn’t necessarily go the other way.

I know. That’s the direction I needed the isolation. I installed and used a couple of untrusted applications and didn’t want them to affect my primary computing device.

Linux is fantastic. I hope that some day Linux supports all of the hardware and software I use regularly. Presently it does not.

So, as I explained above, my options are Windows or MacOS. I do the best I can within these circumstances. I know many others are in a similar situation.

[mika]

I phrased it poorly. I should have said ‘to use certain untrusted applications.’ I’ll edit my post.