Oh, I see.
Why?
And so?
What I see @Onscreen5341 proposes is that if in case an iPhone nor a Pixel is an option, there needs to be an alternative we can all agree or otherwise based on knowing their threat model, we can try to persuade or find the alternative
Even out of the question about doing deal hunting if you’re in countries like Brazil for Pixels, and it has happened before. The best way for many in this situation is either debloating devices from stock OS or installing an alternative like LineageOS. You can’t have it in-between .
If that Major OEM that GOS says they’re working on turns out to be Motorola like many have more or less speculated and it can trickle down to budget devices then I can see it being accessible and being a general recommendation.
I feel OP is also right, what if I want the most compact possible phone, in which it cannot be a pixel, sure an iPhone 15 Pro and 17 seems to fill that gap but what if I don’t want to get an iPhone? See what the problem is here. Sony fills the gap of Having a MicroSD and Headphone jack while being a decent phone with the only caveat of not supporting something like GrapheneOS, what if that’s what I want? Unless my threat medal involves Targeted Attack and/or Mass surveillance or equivalent/worse, I see nothing wrong with say telling me to use something like LineageOS or debloating the system as a way to satisfy my needs.
I think reading this thread made me realize We likely have learned almost nothing since the guy who asked between pixels and Fairphone, even though in their specific situation the repairability aspect is more of a less priority that the pixel 10 can fulfill nowadays which I think we all agreed on that, but still goes to show you
This kind of attitude (not referring to you specifically) is exactly why we’re seeing people leave at Privacy Guides or otherwise become anonymized or start lurking, depends on their situation.
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Thank you.
I think you understood exactly what I meant.
Compatible LineageOS devices are scarce or relativly expensive on the used market. Debloatieg can be undone with an update and works best on rooted phones, which isn’t always possible. I agree it would be nice to have alternatives but you can’t beat the current combination of GOS + Pixel. I’m sure everyone who eventually bought a Pixel tried to debloat or flash their existing hardware first. Mobile devices simply do not work like desktop computers. I’m not necessarily disagreeing with your points but we must be realistic. Choosing headphone jacks over basic privacy is madness. USB to 3.5mm adaptors are available and enhance privacy in a sense. Pixels are competitively priced in most places. Yes it sucks but we need to make the best of it.
I understand the frustration over a lack of choice in the market. I still use a debloated Samsung tablet for a couple of apps but waited too long before buying a Pixel Tablet. I should have purchased one the day GOS announced support. We need to pick our battles and debloating isn’t adequate, which is why it isn’t recommended. If anything it gives a false sense of security.
I agree it would be nice to have alternatives but you can’t beat the current combination of GOS + Pixel.
This misses the point.
It is not about beating GOS, it is about what if GOS and IPhones are not an option.
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Personally, I came to the site because I wanted to improve my privacy against big-tech. I improved my privacy drastically but always felt exposed, because there is also a mission creep towards security hardening becoming the deciding factor on whether an app/distro/repository is useful, even as most posters have boring threat models.
I do think that GrapheneOS is a solid choice to increase privacy permanently, but I also think that recommendations can do a better job reflecting real life instead of worst-case threat models. This thread covered it already and said it better than I can:
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OK, let’s break this down. I’ll use an extreme example to illustrate my point and bring it together in the end.
Would you recommend to someone a phone literally bloated with spyware if it was the only one on the market with a 5 inch screen?
Of course not. You would say:
”wait for future releases”
”save your money”
”maybe you can’t get the screen size you want”
It’s perfectly acceptable to not recommend something if you know it’s going to harm that person.
If PG kept recommending the ‘lesser of two evils’ phone for every feature and every combination of features, what have we become? Certainly not a privacy guide. We’ve become a ‘less sh*t phone guide’.
It’s a tough pill to swallow but there is only currently 1 phone that should be recommended
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Would you recommend to someone a phone literally bloated with spyware if it was the only one on the market with a 5 inch screen?
Is anyone recommending companies that try to harm the user (Samsung, Microsoft, Google)?
You put “not the most secure device with downsides” on the same boat as “device that actively harms the user”.
Edit:
If you apply your logic elsewhere you are also not allowed to recommend debloated windows.
Most people and PG (afaik) do this though.
I understand that. For many of us GOS is the ONLY option. I would prefer not to use a phone if GOS or equivelant wasn’t available. Maybe a dumb phone for contacting emergency services. If you have no alternative then debloat in the meantime and save up or wait for Pixel to become available. This is documented and frequently discussed. iPhone is always an option, even in China.
I have felt the OP’s pain and now own a couple of GOS devices. They weren’t cheap but I shopped around and bought a couple of products which had been returned to retailers. Privacy is worth the effort. Settling for anything else is merely hypothetical and even those who live in poverty can afford phones. They need one to access welfare programs and benefits.
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Do you recommend that someone buys Windows just to debloat it? Or is it in fact that they already have Windows and you want to debloat an existing system?
Remember we’re talking about recommending a privacy-respecting phone that someone will buy.
As we agreed on above, a guide for existing phones would be helpful
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Do you recommend that someone buys Windows just to debloat it? Or is it in fact that they already have Windows and you want to debloat an existing system?
Since you can install on every device that runs windows also linux it doesn’t matter what he buys. What matters if he is buying and keeping windows or buying and removing windows.
In my opinion these are synonomous. Imagine buying a car with ‘downsides.’ This could mean anything from the breaks don’t work to the roof leaks. Why settle for less?
Why settle for less?
Because some people as you already said can’t have a pixel or IPhone.
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This is all hypothetical. Privacy Guides should help those with no alternative. I’m sure everyone agrees. But the OP said this:
Recommending a substandard product isn’t in our interest. If all you have is a Samsung then there are multiple threads and blogs to help. PG can’t reccomend those options because they aren’t good. Buying from Google is less than ideal but it is the best we have. Jolla and SailfishOS exists but lacks security features and compatibility.
Everyone can have an iPhone. If you have money for a phone then used iPhones are more widely available than Google Pixels.
Everyone can have an iPhone.
No ….
You argue from the point that everybody has enough money.
There are people out there who only can spend 150€ for phones are even need free phones, because they don’t have money.
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If I can make it a draw on the scoreboard
They said can not should or would
However I have to agree that this is not always the case for everyone, look at Brazil and India for example
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However I have to agree that this is not always the case for everyone, look at Brazil and India for example
Or look at homeless people.
They need a phone with active SIM for searching from jobs, but can afford them.
They get the phones from NGOs where people donated their old phones instead of throwing them away.
Usually they are not EOL, however they are not IPhones nor Pixels. Mostly some cheap Samsung A class, Huawai, xiaomi and so on.
It looks like markets where Pixels aren’t sold (South America, Africa, large parts of Asia) are beyond the scope of an English speaking website. Places like Brazil are ten years behind the latest Korean or Japanese made consumer products, which are beyond what they can afford.
For context a low to mid range Pixel costs roughly half a week’s wage here. For minimum wage workers it would be around one week or maybe two. I assume this is true for most countries where the Pixel is sold.
My current Google Pixel was £200. My first smartphone was £150. All of the other phones I’ve had were given to me by relatives. Pixels are competitively priced in my region.
My current Google Pixel was £200. My first smartphone was £150. All of the other phones I’ve had were given to me by relatives. Pixels are competitively priced in my region.
Wow … .thats insane.
For me a cheap, not EOL, Pixel would be at least 350€.