The first 2 issues are addressed on the site: tips on how to get a good offer and NitroPhone. As for lack of features, that’s up to the user if they want to sacrifice some privacy for a headphone jack, for example. It’s irresponsible to give bad recommendations just to satiate some feature they require
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Using abb to flash other Custom Roms is easy enough for
There are companies already selling flashed devices. So they don’t need to do this.
Other custom roms in general provides on good enough usability, stability and support, to meet the expectations and match the experience of
I think eOS is stable enough, yes.
sing adb plus a third party tool, also having to preview / customize the commands / scripts , list of changes for debloating is easy and friction-free enough for
I don’t know what you mean with that.
Alternative commercially available OS (like /e/OS as you mentioned) provide tangible privacy advantage against the still privillaged GMS for
Please write in sentence. It is extremely hard to understand what you mean.
Other services, such as email, messaging, storage, etc. If those service claims themselves to be private and secure, however there is no E2EE and had plenty of data breaches (so they are not selling your data, they are good guys), but they are free to use and enable plenty nice features such as automations, integrations, etc. Are you going go recommend those services to
Do I only recommend Proton for E-Mails? No I also recommend Tuta, StartMail, FastMail or Mailbox.org.
The same goes for smartphones.
your suggested group of people? Are you serious?
Yes I am.
The first 2 issues are addressed on the site: tips on how to get a good offer
Still there are people out there, how can’t effort them even with such tricks. But I didn’t saw this actually, so yeah that’s not bad.
Oh didn’t know that.
As for lack of features, that’s up to the user if they want to sacrifice some privacy for a headphone jack, for example. It’s irresponsible to give bad recommendations just to satiate some feature they require
Okay, so you recommend the classic Pixel + GOS. Now the user says no that’s not an option I need feature xy and the Samsung smartphone has them, while the Pixel not.
Now also the fairphone has the feature.
So wouldn’t it be more responsible to advise him to the Fairphone with eOS instead of the Samsung?
Does this pass as discourse for you? Does not deserve a response at all. Hopefully those beginners you keep white knighting for do not receive the same behaviour from you, which might be the core reason why they are turned off by the topic.
Just as a helpful tip, beginners do not come in with any delusion that they are correct or have rigid opinions in mind. Here is a post by an actual beginner who comes in with an open mind, asks questions, and then lands on what is the best available option: Hardening Pixel without installing GrapheneOS
I agree, it seems like astroturfing. The entry of various snake oil salesmen with huge marketing but apparently small privsec budgets in the private phone business has muddied the water with constant demands for evaluating punkt, unplugged, and the like, when they have been evaluated already and found to be severely lacking.
Hope the forum clamps down a bit on these repetitive questions by closing them and pointing them to older questions or megathreads.
Just as a helpful tip, beginners do not come in with any delusion that they are correct or have rigid opinions in mind. Here is a post by an actual beginner who comes in with an open mind, asks questions, and then lands on what is the best available option: Hardening Pixel without installing GrapheneOS
I’m talking about non-tech people who have no connection to privacy and are total beginners.
The post you linked is from someone who already knows a bit about privacy and isn’t a total beginner anymore.
He can talk about threat-modeling and he tried GOS.
I agree, it seems like astroturfing. The entry of various snake oil salesmen with huge marketing but apparently small privsec budgets in the private phone business has muddied the water with constant demands for evaluating punkt, unplugged, and the like, when they have been evaluated already and found to be severely lacking.
So you are basically saying that the OP is a bot that comes here any tries to market other phone without any evidence?
Come on ….
That’s exactly what I meant by going down the ‘lesser of two evils’ road. The great thing about GOS is that we can both confidently recommend it and stay principled. If in the future GOS changes and no longer meets our criteria, of course we would have to start recommending ‘lesser of two evil’ phones. But until that day, I can’t think of any compelling reason to give a bad recommendation
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I don’t see the connection between my comment and your comment right now, because I agreed with two of your points and disagreed with one.
So it is hard to know which you mean for me.
With a much steeper price tag and additional risk of allowing a third party to tinker your device without your presence?
Not only stability , also usability (features) and support (OS and driver updates, customer support, community support, etc.).
Also, microg in eos is still privileged. it is still on A15, built on AOSP it has no chance to enable Google Pay, it will also struggle with Play integrity test. So what exactly is the advantage here, other than to bandaid an existing device? If it is solely for damage control, it should not be on recommendation, it should be mentioned in a community guide as harm mitigation measures (with little effect).
Oh, also Fairphone, it’s firmware update track record is not good, it will not survive a reasonable checklist.
Ride on the same logic, PG also needs to cover debloating tools and scripts, to cater the needs of people who cant be covered with custom roms, it is straight forward.
From your arguments these are all “Magnum Heavy Duty Solid Body Combination Lock“, really.
Most people are using Gmail, Outlook, Yahoo Mail, none of the providers you mentioned / recommended by PG can provide comparable functions, not even close.
The first thing general public should learn and adapt is
- Choose services wisely
- Picking a “private and secure” device doesn’t make themselves “private and secure”, this is not the first step, it is further down the line.
It is counterproductive to keep arguing what device, what custom rom, what niche script / tool to recommend, to me it is simply a waste of time.
General public are using Tiktok, Facebook, Chrome / Edge, Gmail, keeping every contact information with Google/ MS as well as phone contact storage which is easily accessible by random apps.
General public are spraying their personal information like watering their lawn.
These are the REAL LIFE SCENARIO and IMMINENT THREAT, not the stupid little thing on our palm.
If they couldn’t even pick and choose privacy friendly services and privacy preserving ways to life their life, there is ZERO chance they could daily drive any device running custom ROM, given the inherited disadvantage of AOSP.
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With a much steeper price tag and additional risk of allowing a third party to tinker your device without your presence?
Threat-Model …. Not everyone might be a potential target of a big supply chain attack like the pager attacker (I hope I wrote it correct).
For some people the risk it too low and they can life with it.
Not only stability , also usability (features) and support (OS and driver updates, customer support, community support, etc.).
Okay, true.
it will also struggle with Play integrity test
Like GOS ……
So what exactly is the advantage here, other than to bandaid an existing device?
You don’t have installed google spying on you. You can also buy the Google device from Fairphone ….
(Again this is if you can’t buy an IPhone or Pixel for whatever reason)
Oh, also Fairphone, it’s firmware update track record is not good, it will not survive a reasonable checklist.
Did you read what I wrote?
What I wrote:
Phones that for fill this list are the Google Pixel and IPhone devices.
However, if you can say that some of these features are out of the scope of your threat model or you just simply can’t have a Google Pixel or IPhone, there is also Fairphone with an eOS, or you can check out dumphones.
Ride on the same logic, PG also needs to cover debloating tools and scripts, to cater the needs of people who cant be covered with custom roms, it is straight forward.
And the forum needs to also recommend these.
From your arguments these are all “Magnum Heavy Duty Solid Body Combination Lock“, really.
No these are not.
I recommend multiple products from multiple companies and not one product from one company.
If they couldn’t even pick and choose privacy friendly services and privacy preserving ways to life their life, there is ZERO chance they could daily drive any device running custom ROM, given the inherited disadvantage of AOSP.
Okay, that’s a point.
Try assessing these services again with the lens of general public, you are telling them to give up the usually free Google Suite, Microsoft 365, which offers great features and integrations, for services with much less features and convenience, just for the sake of privacy.
Yes, to them these are all “Magnum Heavy Duty Solid Body Combination Lock“.
You don’t need to be anyone special to be a victim.
For smartphone, it is not easily for users just to clean install a OS because of bootloader, suggesting them to get tinkered device from third party is a very bad approach as it is very difficult for general public to check device integrity and rectify thing doesn’t look right.
I saw that and I tried not to address that as I just dun want to be too dismissive.
How is a dumphone less privacy invasive / more privacy friendly than using a android with no google account logged in and not using it for anything other than what you would do on a dumphone?
Most dumphones uses UNISOC, a Chinese Chipmaker, from a country that loves forcing their companies planting malware in their products, they mostly comes with unknown web browser, phonebooks, whatsapp, and a closed source, infrequently updated firmware. How private and secure can your activity and information can be?
I already responded in my previous post so I am not going to repeat.
Yes, to them these are all “Magnum Heavy Duty Solid Body Combination Lock“.
I see now what you mean. But still disagree.
It is a difference if you recommend only Proton and nothing else. Or if you recommend Proton, Tuta etc.
For smartphone, it is not easily for users just to clean install a OS because of bootloader, suggesting them to get tinkered device from third party is a very bad approach as it is very difficult for general public to check device integrity and rectify thing doesn’t look right.
This could also happen on a normal smartphone manufacture without the involvement of Third-Parties.
I already responded in my previous post so I am not going to repeat.
I extra highlight the important phrases for this discussion, and you are arguing about the non-highlighted phrases …
My argument was not about Fairphone, not about dumphones. It was that I recommend a list of feature a smartphone needs to have, and such smartphones are Pixel or IPhone device. However, if you can’t get a Pixel or IPhone there are other alternatives like …..
My argument in this post was not about Fairphone or anything. It was that I still recommend Pixel or iPhones, however if this doesn’t work there are also other.
As I already stated my logic in my previous posts, I would suggest you read through those posts again, try to understand my underlying logic and argument, rather than just the surface.
I spent too much effort on this post and I am not going to invest anymore time on this topic.
Trying to mitigate the risks of stock Samsung products is like treating cancer with radiation. You don’t want to be in that position to begin with. GrapheneOS is like starting with a clean bill of health. ‘Curing’ the Samsung leaves us wondering when the next cancer will emerge. Any preferences you set can be reversed with an update. It is good to help users make the best of what they have. Spending time resisting Samsung won’t change anything. Supporting GOS does. I wouldn’t consider buying another Samsung device at this point. They need to be boycotted.
Why are you bringing up that somebody recommends using Samsung?
I think nobody did here, actually.
It’s about other things like Fairphone with eOS
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They are just as unfamiliar with GOS as with anything else. This is just the same tired argument again and again.
No, I am saying the spare of recent threads on this topic smells like astroturfing. It has no relation to OP or is calling them a bot.
The quality of conversation on the forum has turned terrible, and quality contributors have left like @/skewedzeppelin and others. It is just full of corporate shills posting company blogs like @/tuta while not answering any questions or people who created threads like this just constantly. Very unfortunate.
Will rejoin in the future if it improves.
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They are just as unfamiliar with GOS as with anything else. This is just the same tired argument again and again
This might be true, but doesn’t change the outcome.
Again my point is not about technical aspects or which ROM is the best. It is how we approach non-tech people and people for which a GOS or an IPhone are not an option.
I was using Samsung as a universally available brand with significant market share. Nobody here recommends Samsung, which is my point. Dedicating our time and effort to combat a closed ecosystems designed for surveillance is pointless. The only way to win is to not play the game.
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I was using Samsung as a universally available brand with significant market share. Nobody here recommends Samsung, which is my point. Dedicating our time and effort to combat a closed ecosystems designed for surveillance is pointless. The only way to win is to not play the game.
I think I agree with most of it, but I seem to lose to connection to this topic.
What does it have to do with the ongoing discussion?
Nobody should be using /e/OS
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The OP is talking about regular consumers with regular devices and complaining about how privacy advocates consider those devices unworthy of consideration. In essence we ignore Samsung / Oppo / Motorola because they don’t satisfy our needs, while in reality most people own one of those devices. But there is nothing we can do about international availability of Google Pixels and proprietary devices like Samsung makes cannot be fixed.