# Virtualization will be coming to GrapheneOS **URL:** https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/virtualization-will-be-coming-to-grapheneos/21096 **Category:** General **Created:** 2024-09-24T13:22:36Z **Posts:** 42 ## Post 1 by @anon48875053 — 2024-09-24T13:22:36Z > **[GrapheneOS (@GrapheneOS@grapheneos.social)](https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/113185686714810236)** > > @raggi@rag.pub We're actively testing virtualization support and plan to have microdroid working shortly after Android 15 in a standard GrapheneOS build followed by adding an app for running virtual machines. We'd like to get that app at least... > We’re actively testing virtualization support and plan to have microdroid working shortly after Android 15 in a standard GrapheneOS build followed by adding an app for running virtual machines. We’d like to get that app at least started a couple months after Android 15. We don’t plan to expose anything more to third party apps, it shouldn’t be necessary. Can’t wait for this to come out. --- ## Post 2 by @ikelatomig — 2024-09-24T14:46:30Z I don’t know the way android works. Just using it. What does Virtualization by GrapheneOS bring to the table ? Is this like traditional Virtual Machine but on Android or some kind of privacy feature ? --- ## Post 3 by @anon48875053 — 2024-09-24T15:52:16Z You will be able to run traditional VMs. --- ## Post 4 by @deviancy — 2024-09-24T15:57:25Z GOS home server incoming. --- ## Post 5 by @IksNorTen — 2024-09-24T16:18:17Z Windows on GOS ? --- ## Post 6 by @Regime6045 — 2024-09-24T16:39:03Z Nice. _Year of the_ (virtual) _GNU/Linux Phone_ coming soon. --- ## Post 7 by @ikelatomig — 2024-09-25T03:06:18Z Okay, But generally, I don’t see the need to use VMs on a phone. Any real life scenarios ? --- ## Post 8 by @overdrawn98901 — 2024-09-25T03:11:38Z I imagine you could get a super locked down QubesOS like environment, but I doubt it works out of the gate. Virtualization is stronger than sandboxing. --- ## Post 9 by @Viper — 2024-09-25T04:25:49Z Thanks for info. My only concern is that my p6a GOS sometimes has a brain fart and is sluggish/doesnt bring up opened apps to close all, so i can only imagine forced feature = more sluggish behaviour. :person_shrugging: See what happens. Not that i will go to stock. Wish GOS would move to a faster phone like a samsung or something. Snapdragon cpu etc. --- ## Post 10 by @Anon47485859 — 2024-09-25T05:22:50Z There are three main problems with linux VMs on PCs right now (and VMs/virtualization of hardware are essential for any serious level of security): 1. Lack of unbroken chain to root of trust (hardware) 2. Lack of secure hosts (Virtualization of i/o and guest vms from each other and internally) 3. Lack of secure guest VMs to actually run Qubes solves only the second problem. GOS Virtualization will solve first and second problems. 3rd problem can be fixed slowly since iffl you use disposable, unqiue VMs for everything, it’s not a big issue. GOS has stated somewhere on their website that they wanted to get into a linux hardening project if they had the resources, maybe that will solve the 3rd. Or maybe secureblue and fedora will. Big boost for people who are looking for great security, instead of the reasonable one promised by Qubes. Plus you only need to secure one device now, instead of protecting laptop, phone, and PC from attacks like evil maid. I’d probably only use GOS with VMs and no longer buy laptops, since phone hardware will only get stronger, and most of my work wouldn’t be resource intensive. --- ## Post 11 by @Anon47485859 — 2024-09-25T05:32:20Z Plus I remember reading that Microdroid project by Google is intended so that they can run every application in its own VM. Since microdroid is a minimal version of android, these application VMs would not be as resource intensive. This would be such a great feature, since now you dont even need to trust the various permission interactions and IP tables routing for apps, and can instead provide them with a minimal environment of their own. --- ## Post 12 by @ikelatomig — 2024-09-25T06:25:03Z So, you mean like Docking your Phone to a monitor if VMs become a thing ? Wouldn’t your phone explode ? --- ## Post 13 by @Anon47485859 — 2024-09-25T07:52:41Z Hasn’t exploded yet while I was using screen mirroring, so no I guess. Have you actually used the docking experience first hand or are you guessing it will explode based on third hand reviews and assumptions? I’d say try it before you bash it. Newer docks usually have their own battery and act as powerbanks. For anyone not doing computationally heavy tasks, or who has their workflow mainly on cloud, it’s very easy to get by with even a good tablet mirrored on a larger screen, without even considering the upcoming desktop mode in android. Phones can handle being docked, and can also cast their screens. Neither has been a problem so far in my devices, as long as it doesn’t run 24/7. As pixels become more repairable, I’d say battery health can always be corrected, as with any battery powered device. I’d be more wary of pagers and specific samsung phones. Of course, unless people are running devices with swollen batteries and pay no attention to maintenance. Then I’d recommend people stay away from ALL battery powered electronics. Also there are always people who don’t care about security and privacy. Ig they can continue running debian on 10+ years old thinkpad with outdated firmware, this feature wouldn’t help the ideologically stunted fossbros. Sorry for the long writeup, hope this clarifies! I am very excited for this. --- ## Post 14 by @anon48875053 — 2024-09-25T08:28:40Z The best thing for battery health on Pixel devices is to keep your phone at 100% and plugged in. [https://akc3n.page/posts/battery-management/](https://akc3n.page/posts/battery-management/) --- ## Post 15 by @Regime6045 — 2024-09-25T14:42:55Z While I _hope_ that the article is right, it’s still a bit unclear if it’s actually true. It boils down to: > The devices GrapheneOS supports are thoroughly modern and will manage their own battery health automatically, far better than you ever could manually. On the other hand, for laptops the overwhelming opinions is to limit your battery charge to 80% in the BIOS if you’re mostly leaving your laptop plugged in. --- ## Post 16 by @anon48875053 — 2024-09-25T15:07:54Z I edited my post to make it clearer. --- ## Post 17 by @benm — 2024-09-25T15:10:02Z Worth noting that right now you can use Termx + AndLinux and get full desktop linux on Graphene. There are a few kinks but it works. --- ## Post 18 by @RevealedInWords — 2024-09-25T15:16:37Z I would love to give up my laptop/desktop for GOS on a Pixel tablet, but I would need a few things: - Android desktop (how many years has Google been working on it now?) - Multi-monitor support - MicroSD slot on the tablet --- ## Post 19 by @benm — 2024-09-25T15:23:56Z Have you looked into support for USB-C based accessories? --- ## Post 20 by @Valynor — 2024-09-25T15:29:32Z > [@anon48875053](#): > > The best thing for battery health on Pixel devices is to keep your phone at 100% and plugged in. This is WRONG and BAD for the battery. The article by akc3n unfortunately gets almost everything wrong about batteries: - keeping the battery at 100% state-of-charge is bad - he has no idea how LiIon/LiPoly cells work on a chemical/physical level - he doesn’t understand overcharging in regards to LiIon cells - he advertises against slow charging which is actually good for the battery - he suggests wireless charging which is **extra** bad for the battery because of excess heat Read this instead: [BU-808: How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries - Battery University](https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-808-how-to-prolong-lithium-based-batteries) --- ## Post 21 by @Anon47485859 — 2024-09-25T15:44:11Z Tried userlnd and some other options, but the DEs and distros offered are a bit meh. I would hope for using Gnome when VMs are available. But yes, good if you want the linux environment and not the graphical experience. An interesting effort would be to have something like an alpine for running in the VM. Fast, efficient, lots of optimizations for working in low resource embedded systems. --- ## Post 22 by @benm — 2024-09-25T15:47:22Z The holy grail would be for the phone to be the computer. Dock it to use as a desktop, unplug it to go mobile. --- ## Post 23 by @Anon47485859 — 2024-09-25T15:49:34Z Desktop mode is actually very close: [Android 15's latest QPR beta makes your Pixel Tablet more of a desktop than ever before - Android Authority](https://www.androidauthority.com/android-15-qpr-2-beta-1-desktop-windowing-3481557/) I remember reading it will support phone display + 1 monitor as of now. Not too much, but 2 monitors sound nice. MicroSD sounds interesting. What do you usually use it for? I try not to use on device storage and instead utilize network and cloud storage more. And most modern devices have good storage options. --- ## Post 24 by @Anon47485859 — 2024-09-25T15:54:04Z Exactly. And this would be huge for affordable privacy too. Not everyone can afford to buy a enterprise laptop, or have multiple devices that they will need to upgrade after a few years. Pixels have long support, and cheaper compared to any secure phone + PC setup. Again, I do feel GOS has done enormous amount of work for everyday user privacy, without sacrificing much usability and fancy features. This is another feature for bringing privacy to the masses. --- ## Post 25 by @benm — 2024-09-25T16:18:37Z I love building PCs but laptops is a gap. Framework is working on this but the systems just aren’t that reliable. I would really like if there were a laptop chassis that docked your phone --- ## Post 26 by @Anon47485859 — 2024-09-25T18:41:35Z Read the shared link for a bit, and am slightly confused: 1. The DoD figure clearly shows keeping battery high (at 100%) increases the charge cycles the battery can do. Isn’t your point just straight up wrong according to your source? 2. Seems like a personal attack, assuming their level of knowledge. Same could be said for you, and your source proving you wrong seems to solidify that belief. 3. Modern phones don’t overcharge their batteries. Source: Literally any credible source. Here is one for you: [Does A Smartphone Charger Stop After It's Full?](https://sciencing.com/smartphone-charger-stop-after-its-full-17317.html) 4. Slow charging and fast charging seem like bad terms to use anyway. Your source again indicates that Constant Charge, Constant Voltage is what actually determines how charging affects batteries, and I can see 100s of papers on how USB charging protocols negotiate to provide CCCV conditions. The only downside cited in your source is actually temperature. It also calls it an environmental factor. Charging speed doesnt seem to be the culprit. 5. Wireless charging does generate extra heat, but again modern battery management systems can mitigate this. Source: [Is wireless charging bad for smartphone battery health? - Android Authority](https://www.androidauthority.com/wireless-charging-battery-health-3198991/) Expected better from a community leader lol. Please read the sources before citing. **Edit: Mod removed the next post from me where I cited exactly where he is wrong by quoting his source. Nice power trip. Hopefully @jonah sees this abuse.** --- ## Post 27 by @Anon47485859 — 2024-09-25T18:43:23Z Look into nexdock, although I think better vendors will emerge when this becomes more mainstream, especially since Samsung dex is already a mature-ish product. --- ## Post 28 by @Valynor — 2024-09-25T18:58:09Z > [@Anon47485859](#): > > Expected better from a community leader lol. Please read the sources before citing. You got everything I said wrong: -you didn’t understand the DoD graph, it shows literally the opposite of what you just alleged -there was no personal attack -I never stated that modern phones overcharge batteries -slow/fast charging has nothing to do with the CC/CV phase of charging only with the amps/time that get sent into the battery -any excess heat is bad for the battery and the way wireless chargers “mitigate” this is by stopping the charge once a temperature threshold is reached Read the BU article again and take your time to fully understand it before alleging that I didn’t. --- ## Post 31 by @anon48875053 — 2024-09-25T19:18:43Z > [@Valynor](#): > > This is WRONG and BAD for the battery. No, it’s not. > [@Valynor](#): > > The article by akc3n unfortunately gets almost everything wrong about batteries: This article isn’t written by akc3n, which is noted here: [https://akc3n.page/posts/battery-management/#note](https://akc3n.page/posts/battery-management/#note) > [@Valynor](#): > > keeping the battery at 100% state-of-charge is bad Just because the phone reports the battery to be 100% it doesn’t mean that it’s true, modern phones have protections. When the phone reports the battery to be at 100%, the battery itself isn’t physically full because it would indeed be bad for the battery if it was fully charged or overcharged. When the phone reports 100%, it bypasses the battery and just powers the phone itself, so charging the phone to 100% and keeping it plugged in is the best for battery health. > [@Valynor](#): > > he suggests wireless charging which is **extra** bad for the battery because of excess heat It doesn’t matter if that heat doesn’t reach the battery itself. --- ## Post 32 by @Valynor — 2024-09-25T19:29:12Z > [@anon48875053](#): > > No, it’s not. Yes it is. The closer you charge to full the more stress it puts on the battery, the faster the battery ages and the less cycles you will get (keeping the battery at a high state-of-charge for a prolonged time is also bad). There’s a graph in the article I posted that shows this in detail: ![](//forum-uploads.privacyguidesusercontent.com/original/2X/2/24228b10a5c10676dfb1d86367fdfa57e5c72726.jpeg) The phone misreporting the actual charge level by a few single-digit percent is irrelevant. And the heat does reach the battery, it’s only ~1 mm away from the heat source. I think this is enough off-topic for this thread now, if you want to please DM me on Matrix and I will explain everything to you in detail. --- ## Post 34 by @user1 — 2024-09-25T20:14:45Z Android 15 qpr1 will have an option for limit charging at 80%, so I guess it’s useful. [https://9to5google.com/2024/09/13/android-15-qpr1-limit-battery-charging/](https://9to5google.com/2024/09/13/android-15-qpr1-limit-battery-charging/) --- ## Post 35 by @InternetGhost — 2024-09-25T20:48:47Z To speak to the idea of running all of your desktop tasks on your phone, Samsung DeX is a thing and I think it has been for a while. It seems like Google is currently exploring something similar with the windowed applications. Samsung currently gives you a desktop experience if you dock your phone, so this does not seem like a stretch at all to one day have your phone be the only computer you use for most things. --- ## Post 36 by @xe3 — 2024-09-25T22:41:04Z I think all the battery health stuff is getting fairly off topic, but as far as I can see, what @Valynor is saying is really pretty foundational, broadly accepted, “101 level” lithium battery chemistry knowledge that shouldn’t be controversial. Its hard to comment on the credibility or accuracy of the ak3cn gist because the author projects confidence but cites no sources, gives no facts, figures, or charts, and gives no credentials to help readers assess the credibility of some of the unconventional assertions they are making. (and the comparison to 2005 era batteries is a bit of a strawman, the author also contradicts _current_ conventional wisdom, about _current_ lithium battery chemistries) > **Some Specifics & charts** > > > [@anon88736481](#): > > > > That is a different thing from merely having it plugged in and fully charged with few to no discharges > > Holding a lithium battery at 100% SoC is harmful to battery health regardless of DoD[[1]](#footnote-60137-1). For long-term storage most lithium battery manufacturers I am familiar with recommend ~30-60% SoC. > > Cycling your battery up to 100% isn’t great but also isn’t horrible, _holding_ your battery at or near 100% is worse (if it’s lithium, if it’s a lead-acid car battery the opposite is true). > > ![Li-ion-battery-discharge-voltage-curve](//forum-uploads.privacyguidesusercontent.com/original/2X/0/05ecd7f32e838713514937091041f3fc7e6b33d3.jpeg) > > > having too low of a DoD > > That is a factor also, ideally you want to avoid both extremes (the upper and the lower ‘knee’ of the voltage curve). Both things are true and independent of one another. These are just two of the web of factors that can effect battery health. > > Figure 8 shows that for _the same depth of discharge_ (a very healthy and conservative lower limit of 25% SoC), healthy battery lifespan is significantly reduced when charging to 100% compared with 85% or 75%. > > ![capacity-retention3](//forum-uploads.privacyguidesusercontent.com/original/2X/6/6570b391c77e7de69164a88a6842ba4eb847a098.jpeg) > > It isn’t shown in this chart, but in general, even just slightly modifying charge/discharge cycle bandwidth to something like 95-5 or 90-10 can really extend battery health over time. * * * 1. [see fig. 2b (pdf)](https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy18osti/70616.pdf): “Higher SOC is accompanied by a higher rate of capacity loss” [↩︎](#footnote-ref-60137-1) --- ## Post 38 by @overdrawn98901 — 2024-09-25T23:43:32Z Not sure how this became a battery thread lol --- ## Post 39 by @ikelatomig — 2024-09-26T02:17:31Z > [@Anon47485859](#): > > are you guessing it Yes but based on my own knowledge. > [@Anon47485859](#): > > For anyone not doing computationally heavy tasks But people here seems to be eager to swap their PCs with this. I have used Screencast too. But I have no idea regarding using a VM and then using via monitor by docking. My assumption, resource heavy and would kill the battery sooner if no powerbank is used. > [@Regime6045](#): > > On the other hand, for laptops the overwhelming opinions is to limit your battery charge to 80% in the BIOS if you’re mostly leaving your laptop plugged in. Using a Dell Laptop, can’t cap by battery like that. * * * Offtopic question : Does GOS use Nearby share with Google account if Sandboxed play services is installed and your account is logged in ? --- ## Post 40 by @IksNorTen — 2024-09-26T06:18:43Z The best way to preserve your battery over the long term : - Avoid recharging above 80%, except for long days - When your battery drops to 20-25%, avoid going any lower and start recharging. - Avoid excessive consumption, especially when the temperature rises. The battery hates high temperatures. I’ve never heard any such advice to keep your phone plugged in at 100%; all those who have studied the subject closely have given the same recommendations above. In addition to the stress induced by recharging and parallel use, which can cause the battery to heat up more easily, when you will need to unplug it for a few hours (to go outside, for example), you could lose battery power much more quickly. --- ## Post 41 by @ikelatomig — 2024-09-26T06:31:58Z For bast’s sake, someone split this thread, @jonah - Could ya ? --- ## Post 42 by @Regime6045 — 2024-09-26T14:05:52Z The whole battery problem wouldn’t be a problem if they would still make phones with easy to replace batteries. Changing the battery on a Pixel 8 is “Difficult” and takes 1-2 hours [according to iFixit](https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Google+Pixel+8+Battery+Replacement/166180) --- ## Post 43 by @jonah — 2024-09-26T14:42:53Z