# THE HATED ONE: We need to talk... about the Proton ecosystem **URL:** https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/the-hated-one-we-need-to-talk-about-the-proton-ecosystem/33717 **Category:** General **Tags:** video, software **Created:** 2025-12-11T15:29:02Z **Posts:** 97 ## Post 1 by @PurpleDime — 2025-12-11T15:29:02Z > **[We need to talk... about the Proton ecosystem](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QdBAa6N3C8&feature=youtu.be)** > > Proton is good. But also too big. Support my independent work: https://www.patreon.com/thehatedone Ecosystem is a trap. It lures you in with the promise of c... **TL;DR: THO goes into how Proton makes its users vulnerable by having a large ecosystem.** In my opinion, THO makes some valid points. It’s always good to compartmentalize and have the option to easily do so. I don’t have an issue with Proton creating an ecosystem. It’s important that they are able to compete with Google and Microsoft, especially on the business market. If Proton and other privacy companies can steer businesses away from these two Big Tech companies, it would be a huge game changer. What I take issue with is Proton trying to lock people into their ecosystem. **Specifically, I take issue with Proton not allowing their users to have multiple subscriptions under the same account.** This is something I have voiced [multiple times](https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/criticism-of-protons-subscription-options/32206) [in the past](https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/proton-introduces-emergency-access/30575/2). If I only need Proton Mail Plus and Proton Drive Plus, I should be able to subscribe to both and not be forced into upgrading to Proton Unlimited. Having to create a second Proton account is useful, but offers a subpar experience for those who just want to use a single account. I also agree with THO that if you use Proton Pass, it is probably wise to not use any other Proton product with the same account, other than Simple Login. Moreover, Proton should try to find ways to protect users who use multiple Proton products under the same account. For example, IMO, they should copy 1Password’s model and have a unique security key for Proton Pass, so that if someone has your password, they cannot log into your account on a new device without that security key. --- ## Post 2 by @anonymous484 — 2025-12-11T15:33:37Z A large ecosystem is about customer retention. The more involved a user is in the Proton ecosystem the higher the switching cost is to diversify. Which makes it easier for Proton to keep you paying a subscription. This is why Proton does not allow you to choose services ala carte and instead forces you to bundle. This just increases the chances you will rely on Proton for more services. --- ## Post 3 by @anon64393658 — 2025-12-11T15:34:42Z I think we need to spend less time talking about click bait rage creators with poor reputations for factual accuracy. --- ## Post 4 by @ElectricEye — 2025-12-11T15:48:56Z > [@anon64393658](#): > > click bait rage creators with poor reputations for factual accuracy What do you mean? THO is a well-known and reputable member in the privacy community. He may have strong and somewhat extreme opinions, but he’s very different from people like Rob Braxman, or am I mistaken? I do agree with you that we should spend less time talking about fud, except for warning others about it. --- ## Post 5 by @anon57862721 — 2025-12-11T16:09:54Z > [@ElectricEye](#): > > THO is a well-known and reputable member in the privacy community. That doesn’t by default make him an authority on how best to evaluate things especially when the reputation appears to be waning if thought about it critically (or atleast ought to be). You should read up on the Proton video he made that was posted here and see what people are thinking. THO is becoming more and more sus if he keeps up with being contrarian just for the sake of it. --- ## Post 7 by @KevPham — 2025-12-11T16:54:27Z I mentioned this in a TWIP podcast before, but no content creator should be trusted blindly 100%. Privacy Guides should never be trusted 100% as well. At the end of the day, content creators have their own views. There is nothing wrong with hosting opinions, but projecting them as an objective truth is dangerous. Perhaps THO was irked after being ghosted by Proton, which reinforced his growing doubts about the Proton ecosystem. There are a lot of people who agree with him, and for valid reasons! Like, would you trust any company with your data just because they said so? I even unsubscribed from Proton Unlimited for this very reason. So if that’s a completely valid take, why am I even typing this? Well, not everyone has the money to self-host or pay for multiple services. Proton being an ecosystem is a benefit for the average person, but not particularly great for high-risk threat models. While I’m sure that he doesn’t have ill intentions, there is growing trend of content creators going after privacy-friendly solutions because they don’t go far enough. Which ironically ends up harming a lot of people. (not saying that THO is doing this for the record) TLDR; THO has valid opinions, but reconsider whether your situation would actually fit what he suggests is the optimal choice for your privacy journey. --- ## Post 8 by @TinFoilHat — 2025-12-11T17:27:51Z IMO if password manager is the concern here, just use KeePass and sync across device with Proton Drive. --- ## Post 9 by @win11.shading291 — 2025-12-11T17:30:05Z Proton is not protected by enshittification. Even if they’re a nonprofit. I haven’t watched the video, but not putting all eggs in the same basket is a good thing to do IMO. --- ## Post 10 by @anon57862721 — 2025-12-11T17:32:54Z > [@win11.shading291](#): > > Even if they’re a nonprofit. Technically they are are non profit with a for profit wing. Hence their subscriptions to make money for their privacy products. --- ## Post 11 by @win11.shading291 — 2025-12-11T17:38:02Z Yes, I put that just because I heard the argument here before that since they’re non profit, they will never go the enshittification path, which I find a bit naïve. --- ## Post 12 by @anon57862721 — 2025-12-11T17:40:54Z > [@win11.shading291](#): > > will never go the enshittification path, which I find a bit naïve. Well, anything can happen to any company. But I trust Proton at the moment to ensure of this. Also, I don’t believe everything THO is saying here about Proton is valid. Some are, some aren’t. For all the examples he gives, he doesn’t mention the details of the story but only covers as the headlines reads. Also, not everything THO is saying is also accurate here. It’s all his opinions but he says it like he is claiming things as they are. He’s wrong. He also says this is a nuanced take. Not quite, is it now? Given the bone he has to pick with Proton? But I don’t want this thread to become another debate here. --- ## Post 13 by @anon57862721 — 2025-12-11T17:41:53Z > [@KevPham](#): > > I even unsubscribed from Proton Unlimited for this very reason. What exactly is “this” reason here? You are not clear. At least it is not clear to me. --- ## Post 14 by @Cyber-Typhoon — 2025-12-11T17:54:13Z > [@anon64393658](#): > > creators with poor reputations I never understood why a self-proclaimed “hated one” and a creator prejudiced by Google’s algorithms is not making their content available on other platforms, such as Peertube. --- ## Post 15 by @pg.user — 2025-12-11T17:57:50Z Valid points and thoughtful realistic suggestion at the end, good stuff as always. Convenience is mentioned a lot in his YT comments. Every good OPSEC dies right after that word. --- ## Post 16 by @nateb — 2025-12-11T18:02:36Z Where have I seen this business model before? Let me check with Mozilla’s AI integration in Firefox… --- ## Post 17 by @object2598 — 2025-12-11T18:03:54Z His points are absolutely right, and on Privacy Guides we should be suggesting the best approach first (diversification) rather than suggesting stuff just because it’s easier for the average person. The average person would not be reading privacy guides anyway if they have no need or interest. If they have a need or interest, they should be diversifying their apps. --- ## Post 18 by @anon12918199 — 2025-12-11T18:14:01Z I’m a proton plus subscriber and I use it for email, calendar and drive. Nothing else though. It’s definitely super annoying to see how they just keep putting out more and more products instead of focusing on their core business products. Proton is a mile wide, inch deep platform at this point. It’s especially frustrating how they still haven’t addressed some of the super requested features for years such as supporting UnifiedPush instead of relying on Google’s push notification platform for Android. I’d be happier if PG started recommending for users to use custom domains (maybe too complex?) when signing up for these email providers. At least this way a user would never be too tied down to them and could always jump ship without having to update their email everywhere. --- ## Post 19 by @KevPham — 2025-12-11T18:15:24Z > [@anon57862721](#): > > What exactly is “this” reason here? You are not clear. At least it is not clear to me. Besides the data centralization concern, I wanted to use Mullvad and didn’t feel Proton was useful enough for me beyond its email feature. If Proton Drive supported Linux, I may resubscribe. Otherwise, the ecosystem was a bit tiring to deal with unless you go all in. --- ## Post 20 by @privacy2 — 2025-12-11T18:16:25Z I’m new here. I know nothing about THO and have never watched their videos before. However, I don’t know how anyone on this forum can totally back a service or collection of services which progressively and furiously target so many social media accounts to fund, sponsor, etc their products. It leaves not only a bad taste in my mouth, but gives me an absolute reason to not trust their product(s) at all. I mean, look at the controversy on their subreddit for example. They’re using alt accounts on other subreddits to pretend to be an average user to promote their spreadsheet product. Their main subreddt itself removes any submission that could slightly be critical of their services. How can anyone support this? There is no transparency at all. The arguments in this video are sound. If given a court order, not only does this “privacy” company have data on your usage of one of their services, but usage on all of them, and can link them between metadata. I’ve had a bad feeling of proton for some time now, and I cringe anytime I see it suggested as a solution to any sort of privacy. --- ## Post 21 by @KevPham — 2025-12-11T18:25:17Z > [@privacy2](#): > > However, I don’t know how anyone on this forum can totally back a service or collection of services which progressively and furiously target so many social media accounts to fund, sponsor, etc their products. I think the concern is, should the people who’re likely to be targeted with search warrants use a non-self hosted solution in the first place? Instead of any company, maybe they should just self-host their own email and storage, or use cryptomator for the cloud-based storage they require. Proton has a specific usage case. They’re currently an imperfect ecosystem at worst, but it’s still appealing for people who don’t want to use Microsoft 365 or Google Suite. --- ## Post 22 by @anon57862721 — 2025-12-11T18:30:14Z Well since you are new, I recommend not relying on reddit for any quality or accurate info. Doesn’t mean there is no accurate info but there is a lot of click bait rage bait content and comments misrepresenting info even if the commenters there may not be technically inaccurate. It’s lying by omission and misrepresentation of facts. > [@privacy2](#): > > It leaves not only a bad taste in my mouth, but gives me an absolute reason to not trust their product(s) at all. What exactly is your problem here with Proton doing this? > [@privacy2](#): > > How can anyone support this? There is no transparency at all. Well, I don’t know how far you are in your privacy journey but Proton with all its smaller faults (nothing that is or should be deal breaker to anyone), is transparent enough to be trusted given their history, how they operate, and their business model among other things. Again, don’t rely on reddit for good quality accurate info. The thing is.. like I said, not fully sharing the details of the story in the video. Only headlines. Sure, Proton has the capacity to collect metadata. But you can also make and use Proton services anonymously if you wanted to. You can also turn off and ensure no “metadata” is collected in the first place. This means, you can indeed access and use all of Proton’s services as privately and anonymously as you want/can. How do you not see this as a solution to many people’s if not everyone’s privacy needs for all that they offer and how. It is my opinion that you do not yet know enough about Proton to have such a view on them and I believe it is an incomplete assessment of them. But you do you.. you don’t have to trust me but please find accurate info and not fall for misinformation. As you keep learning, I hope you’ll come to see it my way and change your mind somewhat. Right now, you appear to have this view based on half truths and incomplete information. (welcome to the forum btw! Hope you stick around and keep learning). --- ## Post 23 by @anon57862721 — 2025-12-11T18:31:22Z > [@KevPham](#): > > Proton has a specific usage case. Every privacy product has a specific use case. These software are always functional first and feature rich second. --- ## Post 24 by @privacy2 — 2025-12-11T18:41:06Z > I think the concern is, should the people who may be targeted with search warrants use a non-self hosted solution in the first place? Instead of any company, maybe they should just self-host their own email and storage, or use cryptomator for the cloud-based storage they require. I suppose I took this site as to mean “privacy” didn’t mean differentiating those who would be served with search warrants from “normal” people looking for actual privacy. Just because you may not be served with a search warrant today, doesn’t mean you may not be in the future based on future actions, and you’re actions and services you chose for privacy today, should hold up in both situations. You could combat this with your callouts to threat models, but I think it still stands. I agree though. Self hosting (with the technical knowledge to do so securely) is the solution and proton is definitely a better choice than, say, Google/MS. I do however have the same feeling from proton today that I did with google (when “do no evil” was their moto) back in the early 2000’s and im confused why it isn’t brought up more. > Well since you are new, I recommend not relying on reddit for any quality or accurate info. Doesn’t mean there is no accurate info but there is a lot of click bait rage bait content and comments misrepresenting info even if the commenters there may not be technically inaccurate. It’s lying by omission and misrepresentation of facts. > Again, don’t rely on reddit for good quality accurate info. I completely and 100% agree but I was not at all using reddit as any source of truth to the matter if you re-read my comment. I was using their shady practices on reddit as an example of why I don’t think they are to be as trusted as the community accepts. --- ## Post 25 by @anon51983832 — 2025-12-11T18:42:44Z I use many devices: tablets, mobile phones, and computers. I didn’t know much about computing when I began this journey into the world of technology, but I was clear for ethical and political reasons that I wanted to change my habits and learn about this world, at least enough to become aware of what I use. My experience with Proton Mail (and SL) and Calendar services has been good, but Drive has wasted too much of my time. On Mac it’s horrible (or it was, I stopped using it a long time ago). It only worked well on Windows (and even then the upload speed is ridiculous compared to Filen, for example); the photo sync functionality only serves to make backups. They need to polish Drive much more (I think that after Mail, it’s the cornerstone of all the other services). The VPN is good overall, but on Fedora and Ubuntu it’s given me a lot of problems. In the end I use it on a few devices and, on others, Mullvad works without issues. A person who wants to switch from one ecosystem to another, in a simple way and without overthinking it too much, is going to feel brutal rejection when Proton starts giving them problems. In this sense, I think the ecosystem does more harm than good. Ente, Addy, Notesnook, Tuta… These are services that are coming together and collaborating to offer discounts to those who use the family of services, and I think it’s a wonderful idea because they work perfectly and don’t generate so much frustration. I wish Filen, Bitwarden and Mullvad would join the party. --- ## Post 26 by @anon57862721 — 2025-12-11T18:51:02Z I would also like you (and anyone else reading) to always take note, assess, and evaluate for what the product is, can do, is supposed to do or be, and for whom it is made when making your own conclusions about it and what you like or don’t like and for what reasons. Then you may choose to like it fully or somewhat or not at all. Reading and risking confirmation biases from other comments and platforms reinforces potentially misguided beliefs about privacy tech that does not lead to anything good but misinformation at best and your safety at worst. So, you may still question why Proton is beloved with all its faults, I ask anyone to please go back and read beyond headlines and verify the info from multiple sources and also account for what Proton says and does and why - this is where some nuance helps. It’s not always black or white. Proton did this so it must be bad and is a bad product. That’s a bad and poor way to look at it. There’s always more to it, not to mention that none of the issues with which people have had a problem with Proton cannot be mitigated if not eliminated. Their personal OPSEC is also a big factor sometimes. Anyways, I hope I’m more clear for how I meant my other comment. People are so quick to judge and form strong opinions. Take a breath and think critically. The privacy community can be a tricky bunch with particular and have strong alliances to their favorite tools. Learning to look past it to evaluate info more holistically is key. --- ## Post 27 by @privacy2 — 2025-12-11T19:20:29Z > [@anon57862721](#): > > Anyways, I hope I’m more clear for how I meant my other comment. People are so quick to judge and form strong opinions. Take a breath and think critically. The privacy community can be a tricky bunch with particular and have strong alliances to their favorite tools. Learning to look past it to evaluate info more holistically is key. Hey JG, and just to be clear. I’ve seen many many of your comments and I did not mean to come across as argumentative. I see you have absolutely contributed to the privacy community with accurate info for some time. I just want to clear that up. I do still however have an issue with Proton and I think a lot of people are starting to also have that realization. Maybe it’s anecdotal (though, probably not from all the videos etc. coming out) from my circle of privacy minded friends, but I do think it’s absolutely worth discussing the practices from the media “department” of proton which i think leads to a bigger issue to discuss with the product of proton suite itself. I still want to say that, while you and I both agree that reddit and social media in itself is not to be trusted, Proton certainly believes so with their overreaching efforts to fund reddit, privacy influencers, and so on and I absolutely think thats something to take note of. I think that reflects on the company as a whole, and I don’t see how to compartmentalize their product and media team as the decisions for that are the same minded decisions that get passed onto their development team and so on. I think we should be discussing the trust with these companies, and I think, as of right now, Proton is top of the list to be criticized. --- ## Post 28 by @anon57862721 — 2025-12-11T19:26:56Z > [@privacy2](#): > > nd just to be clear. I’ve seen many many of your comments and I did not mean to come across as argumentative. I see you have absolutely contributed to the privacy community with accurate info for some time. I just want to clear that up. Thanks! We’re good. > [@privacy2](#): > > but I do think it’s absolutely worth discussing the practices from the media “department” of proton which i think leads to a bigger issue to discuss with the product of proton suite itself. Yeah, I agree that their marketing needs to improve a lot and so does some of their decisions they make at times. Though the product they do release do their job so not always easy to hate them because they do deliver. > [@privacy2](#): > > Proton certainly believes so with their overreaching efforts to fund reddit, privacy influencers, and so on and I absolutely think thats something to take note of. I also think Proton cannot be like Mullvad or Tuta where their marketing is a lot less than what they do. It’s a different approach to business. Folks who are more purists and ethical when it comes to things like this especially in the privacy and security space are not going to like the almost big tech approach to their marketing but that’s what works. And at the end of the day, I’d rather see more people move to Proton than worry about how they are doing it. That said, I do see that they are very close to crossing lines at times. Perhaps I’m being overly forgiving here to Proton. But I am also thinking about this from a slightly more big picture way. I don’t know.. I might change my mind later but this is what I think for now. --- ## Post 29 by @anon82422799 — 2025-12-11T19:41:37Z I agree with you. I was actually debating on making a forum post about this very THO video myself. However, as you beat me to it, I will post my personal opinion on this here. Here is my two cents on the matter: My thoughts for Proton: 1. Proton is a pretty well-known company, as far as I know, probably almost as widely recognized as a name as DuckDuckGo in both the privacy community and in general. They haven’t really done anything to negate any trust in my eyes as of yet. 2. I myself was a little skeptical of Proton at first, given some of the criticisms about them that I have seen online. However, after listening to a couple interviews with Andy Yen on both the Linux Experiment and on one of Vivaldi’s podcast episodes, it gave me some comfort in being able to choose Proton without worrying too much. Andy Yen seems to be a very chill person, and looks like that he is very passionate in his company and is legitimately serious about the goals and values of Proton regarding the preservation of privacy and security for the average person. 3. In those interviews, one thing that Andy Yen explicitly said was the main reason why Proton is building an ecosystem, is because it is something that the majority of their user base has been explicitly asking for. While it is probably true that there could be a bit of profit and monetary incentive involved as well, Proton is ultimately only trying to cater to their paying user base in what they want. So in my view, that is totally understandable and is a valid reason. Yen also said himself that their biggest stakeholder is their paying users, so they are more willing to listen to their users than other alternative companies like Google and Microsoft. 4. Personally, I myself prefer sort of an ecosystem because it reduces the amount of long-term/permanent subscriptions that I need in order to be productive. I honestly sort of like how Proton is making it so that all of their products can start integrating and working together. This gives me the benefits having a similar experience as using more mainstream suites like Google and Microsoft, but without all of the spying and data collection that I am trying to get away from. I just upgraded from Proton Unlimited to their Visionary plan and I find the value and exclusive perks that is offered in that tier to be insane for the $360/year that it costs, and I absolutely love it. I’m going to try my hardest to keep it for as long as I can forever since it’s not something Proton publicly offers or sells anymore. That is not to say though that I won’t be getting a couple of other things to compliment my Proton ecosystem like Ente for photos and Notesnook for notes, but Proton for me is a nice base to build off of and already has a lot of my bases covered. 5. I feel that THO may have felt a bit sore about what was essentially a rejection of his interview offer by Proton, so that could have been partially what has fueled the inspiration of his latest video about them that he made. My thoughts against Proton and for THO: 1. I think that THO does present some perfectly valid arguments and reasons against using Proton, in particular for those who have higher threat models or just prefer to avoid any sort of ecosystem altogether. So, I think the warnings and risks that he presented are justifiable and within reason in regards to this matter. 2. I have seen some Reddit stories and some comments on YouTube regarding some testimonies of some people who have gotten some of their Proton accounts shut down for unknown reasons. However, I am not sure to the extent of their validity. 3. I think that it is quite strange that Proton advertises “open source” on all of their products and services, yet it seems for most of their software only the clients are open sourced while none of the code running on Proton’s servers is published and made publicly available on code repositories like GitHub or GitLab. For example, Proton claims that their Lumo AI is fully open source, yet none of the server-side code to the models they used and customized, their implementations of the AI, the chat UI, their web browsing mechanism for Leo, etc. are available to the public with only the code for their Lumo iOS and Android apps being made available. Although, it does seem like that Proton has published what open source models they use for Lumo in their documentation, so +1 for them on that. That means to say, unlike fully open source Notesnook and Ente Photos with both their client and server-side code being available for instance, I have no ability to get the full source code of the Proton Suite, compile it myself, and run it locally on my own self-hosted hardware if I wish to do so. Philosophically speaking, since I have bought a lifetime license to Proton Pass and Simple Login Premium, I feel that I should have the right to obtain a copy of the same exact Proton Pass and Simple Login software that runs on Proton’s infrastructure and fully run it self-hosted myself without needing Proton hosting it for me, in the same manner as I would self-host a fully and truly FOSS cloud password manager like Bitwarden. If Proton could let me do that, I would find that to be seriously awesome. 1. I find it interesting and weird that Proton would basically just ghost THO like that, and not even take him up on his offer of doing an interview despite him turning them down for a sponsor. There you have it. That is my official stance on this matter. --- ## Post 30 by @Scott — 2025-12-11T21:46:25Z > [@Cyber-Typhoon](#): > > I never understood why a self-proclaimed “hated one” and a creator prejudiced by Google’s algorithms is not making their content available on other platforms, such as Peertube. The explanation I read/heard from him was he wants to stay on a platform where the noobs are so he can get more people to care about privacy/security. If he goes to Peertube, he feels he will just be making videos for tech experienced people. BTW he does have an account on Bitchute [The Hated One](https://www.bitchute.com/channel/thehatedone/) --- ## Post 31 by @anon57862721 — 2025-12-11T21:55:44Z > [@Scott](#): > > he wants to stay on a platform where the noobs are so he can get more people to care about privacy/security. And yet his videos don’t appear to be heavy on exposition than just talking about what’s what in privacy. There’s so much more he can do to better explain his stances on things if the goal is to explain it to newcomers to the space. --- ## Post 32 by @_TrustyRocinante — 2025-12-11T22:07:03Z I think at the end of the day, we should always have an exit strategy to every critical service we rely on. I love email aliases, but the more I create, the more I mentally sweat about the idea of leaving behind my alias provider for another and need to go through and update each one. It’s not impossible, but it’s something to consider when going all-in on a service. Proton Suite is great, I think, but if they go south then we should have a rough idea on how we would quickly transition to another service ASAP. This is generally my beef with companies like Apple, because it is very difficult to quickly leave their ecosystem once you’re all-in. Privacy is about control over our personal information, but there’s this tough balance between doing everything ourselves (self-hosting) and giving control to a trustworthy company. --- ## Post 33 by @anon57862721 — 2025-12-11T22:09:50Z > [@_TrustyRocinante](#): > > I think, but if they go south then we should have a rough idea on how we would quickly transition to another service ASAP. I think this is the only argument that I currently find valid and a dealbreaker for not going to ecosystem route if this is a legitimate concern of one. Being fragmented with the services you use helps mitigate if not eliminate this issue. --- ## Post 34 by @privacy.slouchy — 2025-12-11T22:10:39Z > [@_TrustyRocinante](#): > > I love email aliases, but the more I create, the more I mentally sweat about the idea of leaving behind my alias provider for another and need to go through and update each one Off topic: this is the case for custom domain aliases, in lieu of addresses on the provider’s stock domains. It’s trivial to reestablish these same aliases with a new provider, if you own the domain --- ## Post 35 by @Menkork — 2025-12-11T22:45:53Z > [@privacy.slouchy](#): > > is the case for custom domain aliases, in lieu of addre Exactly. And this right here, like some others have mentioned, is the big one. Always have an easy exit strategy. It doesn’t matter if you decide to put all your eggs in one basket because it’s convenient and easy, or if you use a dozen different services because you think you absolutely have to diversify, always have an exit strategy. Always back up your 2FA codes, your recovery keys, always have a local storage, even if you do use cloud, always do the 3-2-1 backup method, and absolutely use custom domains and catch alls for your aliases, say your prayers, drink your milk, take your vitamins, etc..etc.. --- ## Post 36 by @Encounter5729 — 2025-12-11T23:14:44Z This was a great video. He isn’t wrong on many aspects. I disagree on the following point. Warrants: Andy Yen mentioned in an interview Proton VPN is actually a separate entity than Proton itself,meaning a single court order couldn’t order Proton Mail info and Proton VPN one. Not sure if still holds today. * * * Also, I disagree putting eggs in different baskets is better. But this is another subject. Proton is aiming to compete with Big Tech, and I believe that’s good. We need to bring Privacy to the masses. Proton has 100 million users. People are used to ecosystems and honestly it’s just more convenient. --- ## Post 37 by @PaleCrow55 — 2025-12-11T23:18:46Z > [@Encounter5729](#): > > I disagree putting eggs in different baskets is better. It’s a matter of different people having different threat models. I don’t have any issues myself with using Proton for all the things Proton offers, but if someone does have an issue, that’s not a “wrong” stance. --- ## Post 38 by @olanography — 2025-12-12T01:11:56Z I haven’t watch this video as of writing. Does the content creator make _concrete_ criticisms about Proton’s ecosystem, like @PurpleDime? Or are they just criticizing the _abstract concept_ of ecosystems and criticizing Proton for creating one? If it’s the former, I’ll consider watching it. If it’s the latter, I see no reason to. Why not just make a video about ecosystems in general, if that’s the case? --- ## Post 39 by @win11.shading291 — 2025-12-12T01:41:17Z Just watched it. I’d say the main argument is to not put all eggs in the same basket which implicitly implies that you need an exit strategy. He also points out on the company having control over your email shouldn’t be the same one handling VPN on the case of the company going evil (being sold for instance) or a court order. He also talks about the journalist who got his account closed and Proton didn’t react until it was public. You could theoretically have your account blocked, which in an ecosystem is rather rough if you have no backups. I’m a paid user of Proton, but for some stuff, I don’t have a clear exit strategy. > [@_TrustyRocinante](#): > > I love email aliases, but the more I create, the more I mentally sweat about the idea of leaving behind my alias provider for another and need to go through and update each one. It’s not impossible, but it’s something to consider when going all-in on a service. Is it not possible to migrate aliases easily? If not, I also need to rethink this. --- ## Post 40 by @olanography — 2025-12-12T02:03:54Z > [@win11.shading291](#): > > main argument is to not put all eggs in the same basket which implicitly implies that you need an exit strategy. > > He also points out on the company having control over your email shouldn’t be the same one handling VPN on the case of the company going evil (being sold for instance) or a court order. > [@win11.shading291](#): > > You could theoretically have your account blocked, which in an ecosystem is rather rough if you have no backups. These are just criticisms of the concept, not of Proton specifically. Because of this, I will probably not watch it. It doesn’t seem like anything new. I’m already well aware of the downsides of the all-eggs-in-one-basket approach. > [@win11.shading291](#): > > I don’t have a clear exit strategy Does the content creator suggest any exit strategies or solutions other than “don’t use Proton” or something like that? I think it would be a shame if they didn’t after all the downsides they pointed out. This kind of stuff irks me. > [@_TrustyRocinante](#): > > I love email aliases, but the more I create, the more I mentally sweat about the idea of leaving behind my alias provider for another and need to go through and update each one. It’s not impossible, but it’s something to consider when going all-in on a service. > [@win11.shading291](#): > > Is it not possible to migrate aliases easily? It’s easy to mirgrate from one SimpleLogin account to another, but I can’t say for other services. As for migrating from one service (like SimpleLogin) to another service (like AnonAddy), that would indeed be extremely annoying and difficult if you don’t have a custom domain, as @privacy.slouchy says. > [@privacy.slouchy](#): > > It’s trivial to reestablish these same aliases with a new provider, if you own the domain --- ## Post 41 by @jonah — 2025-12-12T04:51:14Z > [@object2598](#): > > His points are absolutely right, and on Privacy Guides we should be suggesting the best approach first (diversification) rather than suggesting stuff just because it’s easier for the average person. In the grand scheme of things, Proton does not even do enough for me to clock this as a problem. I pretty extensively use _all_ of Proton’s services as a Visionary subscriber, and even as I do so, Proton represents only a very small fraction of what I use on the computer. To me, it’s simply very easy to be highly diversified while also using Proton’s services, and I think most Proton users find themselves in a similar situation. > [@olanography](#): > > Why not just make a video about ecosystems in general, if that’s the case? That’s not clickbait. Just like how he loudly proclaims he’s _very unique and special_ for not accepting sponsors many times throughout the video and in his comments section. I find it pretty challenging to take YouTubers seriously these days when we do what they do + we do written work + we self-host everything from the ground up in addition to meeting people where they are on big tech platforms + we foster this community for other members to do the same. Unfortunately, “content creator” types have been far less willing to work with us compared to serious organizations like Tor or EFF, so _to me_ that speaks volumes about how serious YouTubers are about advancing privacy vs. their own brand. > [@_TrustyRocinante](#): > > I think at the end of the day, we should always have an exit strategy to every critical service we rely on. 1,000%, yes. --- ## Post 42 by @olanography — 2025-12-12T06:23:20Z > [@jonah](#): > > I find it pretty challenging to take YouTubers seriously these days 100% I didn’t wanna say the quiet part out loud since people have lately been posting “content”-like videos as though they are worth the time, so I’m glad you bring it up. --- ## Post 43 by @SwampTrainer — 2025-12-12T06:33:55Z The only thing that’s consistent in this thread is that it’s obvious there’s no pleasing everyone - but everyone seems to feel entitled to be pleased by everything all the time forever. Has anyone thought about the halcyon days of like 3 years ago when most DeGoogle efforts pumped up Proton because they had a few features that were easy to get set up and test out for free? “Finally a real alternative!” they said! “Come for the free email, stay for the Drive and Docs!” they said. NOW they’re too big? Now economies of scale are a crime against which no penance is good enough? Should their data centers be churning butter and growing sage and making sourdough like some homestead trad wife IG account? “Oh, but they need to focus!” on what? Their email works fine, and then y’all launch into a dozen “My baby is the most beautiful,” complaints about how this company is too big but should develop things better faster stronger harder just on the things you use and nothing else. Y’all, Pick. A. Freakin’. Lane. And no, “I just want, like, artisanal email. You know, just like super authentic, where every E2EE message is sealed in wax and the headers and email are written on vellum in perfumed rose-colored ink by a robot whose memory is wiped after every word.(/s)” is not a real lane. This is what half this thread, and every other thread sounds like any time a Proton hate post happens. Proton don’t owe y’all a single freaking thing unless you’re a paid customer. Use it or just don’t. Self host and see how that goes for you. Go over to Tuta. Try and use [Mailbox.org](http://Mailbox.org). It’s not like you don’t have options. If ecosystem lock in is a concern for you, as it very much should be, then get a custom URL like a grown up adult with big boy/girl pants and $20 of grown up money, and stop whining as if a free email address with the service name as your email domain that remains perfect and lovely and infallible for the rest of your life without problems is an inviolable human right. The fact that people need to leverage Proton’s apparently ability to not hold on by a shoestring 24/7 with all-caps clickbait AF titles like “THE HATED ONE!” honestly speaks worse of the privacy community to not be able to keep front flying off the handle with the tiniest emotional nudge. Threads like this genuinely make me wonder if Google pays people to farm negative posts about Proton. Which I shouldn’t have to wonder. I look forward to your thumbs downs, and stilted “Uh, yeah, well, they should just try and be perfect all the time and give this away for free! It’s not hard!” comments. --- ## Post 44 by @Anvil — 2025-12-12T13:41:46Z > [@Encounter5729](#): > > People are used to ecosystems and honestly it’s just more convenient. I agree, but I wish Proton at a minimum had feature parity with existing ecosystems when it comes to migrating away from them. They require a paid plan to setup email forwarding and their CLI email export tool is incredibly not user friendly. I also don’t believe they have an easy way to export all your data from all their services at once like, for example Google does. These things raise red flags for me to the point where I would struggle to recommend Proton for a beginner now, at least for email, unless they had a custom domain already (which beginners don’t tend to have). @SwampTrainer not sure who you think you’re responding to. It’s pretty clear you haven’t watched the video --- ## Post 45 by @Anvil — 2025-12-12T13:55:13Z > [@olanography](#): > > Does the content creator suggest any exit strategies or solutions other than “don’t use Proton” or something like that? Their recommendation is to use Proton if you like it but limit your use of it to just a couple of their tools so you’re not putting all your eggs in one basket in case your account gets shut down or Proton gets acquired etc. People, _please_ watch the video before criticizing it. Far too many of you are just responding to what you imagine they say rather than what they actually say. This goes for news articles etc on this forum as well. It gets exhausting to see after a while. --- ## Post 46 by @Anvil — 2025-12-12T14:09:47Z > [@jonah](#): > > I pretty extensively use _all_ of Proton’s services as a Visionary subscriber, and even as I do so, Proton represents only a very small fraction of what I use on the computer. > > To me, it’s simply very easy to be highly diversified while also using Proton’s services, and I think most Proton users find themselves in a similar situation. I really doubt most find it “very easy” to be highly diversified while spending $360/year on an all in one package. For most, that’s a strong incentive to get as much out of those services as you can. Which is why it irks me and others that you can’t pay just for the products you want. --- ## Post 47 by @TheDoc — 2025-12-12T14:54:12Z I actually like that there’s a half-decent ecosystem like Proton for people who are incredibly stubborn about making any improvements. I know people who definitely wouldn’t be using any alternative to the products they offer if they weren’t conveniently packed into a single unified ecosystem with a free tier. The issue for me is their [customer retention](https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/the-hated-one-we-need-to-talk-about-the-proton-ecosystem/33717/2) business plan as well as failing to be fully open source. It’s what I’d expect from a business but it sucks for consumers. --- ## Post 48 by @anon64393658 — 2025-12-12T15:00:32Z He is not as bad as Braxman, that is for sure. However, he has repeatedly both made sensationalist content over non-issues (like this one…) and attacked unfairly other privacy advocates and organizations. I personally have little respect for him or his content. Looking at the evenly divided positive/negative reactions to my post demonstrates his divisive reputation in the privacy community. --- ## Post 49 by @anon82422799 — 2025-12-12T18:20:55Z > [@jonah](#): > > I pretty extensively use _all_ of Proton’s services as a Visionary subscriber So you’re a Proton Visionary member as well? That’s awesome! It’s honestly really cool to know that you have it as well. I only just recently upgraded to Visionary from Unlimited, about a couple of weeks ago through a type of easter egg that I discovered. I know that it’s a hidden tier that Proton doesn’t generally sell publicly to anyone outside of their early supporters anymore. > [@jonah](#): > > To me, it’s simply very easy to be highly diversified while also using Proton’s services, and I think most Proton users find themselves in a similar situation. I agree. It’s a very similar situation for me as well. I’ll likely use Proton as my core with services picked to compliment around it like Notenook and Ente, as well as delving into the self-hosting world when I get the hardware eventually. > [@jonah](#): > > I find it pretty challenging to take YouTubers seriously these days when we do what they do + we do written work + we self-host everything from the ground up in addition to meeting people where they are on big tech platforms + we foster this community for other members to do the same. Unfortunately, “content creator” types have been far less willing to work with us compared to serious organizations like Tor or EFF, so _to me_ that speaks volumes about how serious YouTubers are about advancing privacy vs. their own brand. I am honestly a pretty big fan of you guys at PG. Thanks for all of the work you and your team has put in. I have used PG as one of my main go-to resources, even back when you guys used to be [PrivacyTools.io](http://PrivacyTools.io) back in the day. --- ## Post 50 by @anon82422799 — 2025-12-12T18:40:48Z True, and I agree. If I remember correctly, I think that it was him and his channel that originally has gotten me into privacy originally. One of the first privacy-related videos I ever watched was his 2019/2020 privacy tutorials, in which I found were both quite good and extensive. It wasn’t until then I further found things like Techlore, PTIO, Naomi Brockwell, PG, Switched to Linux, etc. when I started to dig further down the rabbit hole on privacy and became more aware of things that are going on behind the curtains of governments and large mainstream technology companies. So, I owe THO a lot of gratitude for that. Though, I will say that his latest critique of Proton has struck a bit of a divisive nerve in the community. But, as someone who has no skin in the game, I do at times find THO’s content to be more aimed at those who want to be a bit more extreme with privacy and/or have higher threat models with having specific targets on their back. --- ## Post 51 by @anon57862721 — 2025-12-12T18:46:46Z > [@anon82422799](#): > > Though, I will say that his latest critique of Proton has struck a bit of a divisive nerve in the community. That’s cause it’s not a fair exposition about all that he is trying to preach here with this video. Several things are still unsaid which is lying by omission if you ask me. Also, its a bit on the nose of THO to make another Proton video criticizing ecosystems - we are not obtuse enough to not know why this video now. --- ## Post 52 by @privacyisconsent — 2025-12-12T19:12:05Z > [@anon82422799](#): > > I do at times find THO’s content to be more aimed at those who want to be a bit more extreme with privacy and/or have higher threat models with having specific targets on their back. I don’t have extensive experience with THO’s content but from what I have listened to I don’t think this is true. From what I understand, the content is more about exploring the quality standards, knowledge/awareness and choices needed for a world that would make privacy abuses and violations much harder than they are now. Some in the thread have described it as a bit abstract but I think it is quite a worthy pursuit. I also think this thread is evidence that it is quite hard to do. --- ## Post 53 by @kissu — 2025-12-12T19:59:15Z I don’t really see anything wrong with this video and agree with the takes that THO has there. But I know that Proton is a very good :popcorn::popcorn::popcorn: topic on here so I’ll opt out from it. :relieved_face: We could say that it’s speculative for sure, but it’s also a good thing to not be dependent on a company if you can avoid it altogether. :+1:t2: --- ## Post 54 by @Encounter5729 — 2025-12-12T21:16:15Z :100: > [@Anvil](#): > > but I wish Proton at a minimum had feature parity with existing ecosystems when it comes to migrating away from them. That’s a very fair point. Proton benefit immensely from Google’s transition tools, but they don’t give customers the same tratment. --- ## Post 55 by @anon4692472 — 2025-12-12T23:04:32Z I’ve yet to see one _credible_ reason not to trust any of Proton’s services. It seems that many in the privacy/security community have trouble holding two truths at the same time - that a company can be successful, growing and profitable, yet also respect user privacy. --- ## Post 56 by @anon82422799 — 2025-12-12T23:19:54Z I wish that I could react with a 100, but here is a… :100: --- ## Post 57 by @PixelatedWizard — 2025-12-13T20:09:25Z The whole video seems to miss that you can just use separate accounts? I think it’s good idea to not use password manager, 2FA app, email and VPN from the same company, especially when there’s plenty of very good alternatives. But even if you wanted to, using different accounts negates most of the problems I think. --- ## Post 58 by @anon57862721 — 2025-12-13T20:13:16Z > [@PixelatedWizard](#): > > The whole video seems to miss that you can just use separate accounts? Then you’d be violating Proton’s terms of service I believe if you’re only creating free accounts to use their services. See [Terms of Service | Proton](https://proton.me/legal/terms) 2.7 --- ## Post 59 by @PurpleDime — 2025-12-13T20:19:19Z Wow! I did not expect so many responses to my post. I apologize for being MIA after publishing it. Life got in the way. Since I can’t make more than 2 posts in a row, this is going to be long, so buckle up! **ON ECOSYSTEMS** @anonymous484 Everything you just said seems factual. It doesn’t tell me your opinion on the matter, though. I want to reiterate that, unlike THO, I am not against Proton having an ecosystem. I support it. What I am against is coercing and locking users into that ecosystem. > [@anonymous484](#): > > This is why Proton does not allow you to choose services ala carte and instead forces you to bundle. **How does Proton fail to retain me if I already pay for one product and wish to pay for a second one instead of the whole suite?** **Why force me to pay for Proton Unlimited or create a second account when, in both cases, Proton is getting more money from me?** That doesn’t make sense to me. _ **The exceptions of Lumo, SimpleLogin & Standard Notes** _ Moreover, the simple fact that products like Lumo are an add-on for single service subscribers as well as Proton Unlimited subscribers completely contradicts their logic. [SimpleLogin also remains a standalone product despite being integrated into the Unlimited suite.](https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/12vw151/simplelogin_with_proton_mail_plus_without_proton/) In other words, it’s possible to have Proton Mail Plus and Simple Login Premium with the same Proton account without being on Proton Unlimited. And I am not referring to the $200 lifetime bundle. Lastly, [just yesterday, Proton announced that Standard Notes would remain a standalone product.](https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/standard-notes-2025-update-what-s-new-and-whats-next/33774/16) To me, Proton not allowing multiple subscriptions under the same account for most of their native services shows a lack of confidence. It reveals that they know that some of their products don’t stand strongly on their own, so they want to coerce their paying users into them via Proton Unlimited. [I’ve said it before](https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/i-ditched-gmail-for-proton-mail-hoping-for-privacy-but-the-grass-wasnt-greener/27696/27); to me, [it’s a dark pattern](https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/criticism-of-protons-subscription-options/32206/7). > [@KevPham](#): > > I mentioned this in a TWIP podcast before, but no content creator should be trusted blindly 100%. Agreed. > [@KevPham](#): > > While I’m sure that he doesn’t have ill intentions, there is growing trend of content creators going after privacy-friendly solutions because they don’t go far enough. Which ironically ends up harming a lot of people. **AS LONG AS IT’S IN GOOD FAITH, CRITICISM SHOULD BE WELCOME** I personally haven’t seen this become a trend from creators in the privacy/tech community. You’ll have to enlighten me. I also think there is a difference between criticizing a Big Tech surveillance capitalism company for offering privacy solutions (Apple, Meta, Telegram) vs. criticizing a privacy-first company (Proton, Notesnook, Tuta, etc…) doing the same. As long as it’s done in good faith, both should be welcome. > [@win11.shading291](#): > > Proton is not protected by enshittification. Even if they’re a nonprofit. **ON ENSHITTIFICATION** I agree. Some people find it controversial for me to say this, but [removing features that were once free or part of a specific tier you pay for, 100% qualifies as enshittification](https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/i-ditched-gmail-for-proton-mail-hoping-for-privacy-but-the-grass-wasnt-greener/27696/27). It doesn’t matter if it’s not on the scale of Google and Meta. [It’s still enshittification.](https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/criticism-of-protons-subscription-options/32206/11) And both privacy and non-privacy companies have done this, including Proton. > [@Cyber-Typhoon](#): > > I never understood why a self-proclaimed “hated one” and a creator prejudiced by Google’s algorithms is not making their content available on other platforms, such as Peertube. **WE SHOULD ENCOURAGE PRIVACY ADVOCATES TO BE ON PRIVACY FRIENDLY PLATFORMS** To make a bigger point, I don’t understand why a lot of prominent privacy voices are not present or active on privacy-friendly platforms. In my case, I am thinking of Mastodon. It’s one thing for privacy advocates to not be on Twitter or BlueSky. But if they are present there, it contradicts their advocacy to not be on Mastodon. The Mastodon community is much bigger than I thought. Even if their toots :elephant: have to be automated, there is value in all privacy influencers being there. Those of us who follow them on other platforms should kindly encourage them to join and/or be more active. > [@anon12918199](#): > > roton is a mile wide, inch deep platform at this point. Unfortunately, I find there is some truth to this. At least for some of their services. > [@KevPham](#): > > I think the concern is, should the people who’re likely to be targeted with search warrants use a non-self hosted solution in the first place? **ON PROTON’S THREAT MODELS** People who become whistleblowers never predicted that they would become whistleblowers. Hence, you want to be able to protect yourself in advance because you never know when you could be put in that position. > [@KevPham](#): > > Proton has a specific usage case. They’re currently an imperfect ecosystem at worst, but it’s still appealing for people who don’t want to use Microsoft 365 or Google Suite. No system is perfect. Proton is for regular average people, but also people who work in fields where they could be targeted, like journalism. IMHO, all journalists should use an end-to-end encrypted (E2EE) email provider by default as well as Signal. And you don’t have to be an investigative journalist to warrant this use. You never know where a scandal might come from. You could be a sports journalist and think to yourself you don’t need E2EE because you’re not reporting on government conspiracies, but scandals have come out of sports many times. Same if you report on farming. That’s why E2EE should be the default in journalism. Hell, the argument of privacy advocates is that E2EE should be the default for everyone, and I agree. I have seen media outlets that still use WhatsApp for tips, which, to me, is unacceptable, as you are jeopardizing potential whistleblowers. > [@anon51983832](#): > > My experience with Proton Mail (and SL) and Calendar services has been good, but Drive has wasted too much of my time. **ON PROTON DRIVE & COLLABORATIONS** I don’t use Drive that much, but indeed it is one of Proton’s weakest services in that beyond E2EE it is quite basic compared to other E2EE cloud services. There are so many features I want to see, like having a drop folder so other people can upload files to your account. This is extremely useful, especially when you correspond with people who use Big Tech email providers. > [@anon51983832](#): > > Ente, Addy, Notesnook, Tuta… These are services that are coming together and collaborating to offer discounts to those who use the family of services, and I think it’s a wonderful idea because they work perfectly and don’t generate so much frustration. I wish Filen, Bitwarden and Mullvad would join the party. I think it will come eventually. You’ll note that all those companies don’t directly compete with each other. I can imagine that they wouldn’t want to do a collab if their products were similar, like, for example, Proton & Tuta. I really hope Filen sticks around. **What do you think of Proton’s collab with Vivaldi?** > [@anon82422799](#): > > However, after listening to a couple interviews with Andy Yen on both the Linux Experiment and on one of Vivaldi’s podcast episodes, it gave me some comfort in being able to choose Proton without worrying too much. I don’t understand Proton’s collab with Vivaldi. Maybe I am wrong, but I don’t see Vivaldi as a privacy browser. I’ve never seen Vivaldi be recommended by any privacy advocate, so I find it extremely weird that it would be the primary browser that Proton recommends. I know that years back they recommended Brave and Firefox, which are the standard recommendations. But since their collab with Vivaldi, I’ve seen them cite it as their primary recommendation on Twitter, which, to me, doesn’t make sense. It’s like the Verge promoting WhatsApp on their podcast (sponsored ad) when they know that backups are not E2EE and that they collect tons of metadata. They have reported on it and still promote WhatsApp. > [@anon82422799](#): > > Andy Yen seems to be a very chill person, and looks like that he is very passionate in his company and is legitimately serious about the goals and values of Proton regarding the preservation of privacy and security for the average person. **ON ANDY YEN AND PROTON’S STEWARDSHIP** I agree. Overall, I think he’s made some very smart decisions. For example, I completely understand his justification for Proton not accepting direct payments via Monero. It makes sense to me. That being said, there are decisions that Proton made that I don’t understand and that Andy has never been asked about. Like why they don’t accept multiple subscriptions. I’ve had the chance to ask Proton Support about these questions, and I was not satisfied by their answers. I am still in conversation with them about various issues, and I hope to report on them here very soon. > [@anon82422799](#): > > Proton is ultimately only trying to cater to their paying user base in what they want. So in my view, that is totally understandable and is a valid reason. I’m a paying user and I am fundamentally unsatisfied in key aspects. I want to reiterate that I don’t have any issue with Proton having an ecosystem. I think it is ultimately a good thing. I have an issue with Proton coercing their users into a subscription they don’t want. I am a paying user, and I would like to subscribe to multiple Proton services under the same account. That is mostly not possible. You can only subscribe to one core service or Proton Unlimited. I don’t need nor can I afford the latter. I have voiced this concern to Proton, and they were not moved. My belief is that until a critical mass raises their voice, they won’t care to do anything about it because they don’t want to. Having the ability to use Proton Pass Plus and Proton Mail Plus under the same Proton account would allow my subscriptions to be in the same Proton ecosystem. But it’s not possible. Not unless I upgrade to Proton Unlimited, which, again, I don’t need and can’t afford. --- ## Post 60 by @privacyisconsent — 2025-12-13T20:42:52Z > [@PurpleDime](#): > > I know that years back they recommended Brave and Firefox, which are the standard recommendations. But since their collab with Vivaldi, I’ve seen them cite it as their primary recommendation on Twitter, which, to me, doesn’t make sense. Brave (Brave VPN via Guardian) and Firefox (Mozilla VPN via Mullvad) already have business partnerships for VPNs. Proton only have such a partnership with Vivaldi (interestingly after Vivaldi were forced to give up on a better service in INVISV’s Relay) which gets them more exposure with a slightly different audience (Vivaldi users like customisation afaia). But I don’t know if you should be expecting any kind of strictness and integrity on recommendations from these companies social accounts. I would only expect that from projects like GrapheneOS. --- ## Post 61 by @PurpleDime — 2025-12-13T21:02:26Z > [@anon82422799](#): > > I feel that THO may have felt a bit sore about what was essentially a rejection of his interview offer by Proton, so that could have been partially what has fueled the inspiration of his latest video about them that he made. **ON THO’S MOTIVATIONS** You could also make the case that Proton refused to do an interview with THO after he respectfully declined their sponsorship offer. I personally believe that even if Proton had granted him that interview, THO would have made this video. THO has never been afraid to voice shortcomings in privacy services, whether they are made by privacy companies or Big Tech (Apple). Other trustworthy privacy voices like **PG** , **Tech Lore** , **Firewalls Don’t Stop Dragons** , etc… have also done it, but they are much softer in their communication style, and hence their criticisms may not be received the same way or be explicit enough for people to catch them. > [@anon82422799](#): > > I think that THO does present some perfectly valid arguments and reasons against using Proton, in particular for those who have higher threat models or just prefer to avoid any sort of ecosystem altogether. So, I think the warnings and risks that he presented are justifiable and within reason in regards to this matter. **ON THO’S CRITICISMS OF PROTON** Indeed. There are shortcomings about Proton that most users are not aware of, like the fact that [Proton Pass and Simple Login only allow one alias per third party website](https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/anonaddy-vs-simplelogin/13162/38) ([2](https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/anonaddy-vs-simplelogin/13162/41),[3](https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/how-do-you-use-aliases-with-substack-do-you-use-multiple-aliases-or-just-one/27876),[4](https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/recommended-temporary-email-service/20561/61)) and that [they are completely separate services](https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/proton-pass-and-simplelogin-are-separate-services/30706). Imagine you have Proton Unlimited, and your entire Proton account gets locked, that means losing access to your emails (Proton Mail), your files (Proton Drive), and all your logins (Proton Pass), all because you created 2 aliases for Instagram. > [@anon57862721](#): > > And yet his videos don’t appear to be heavy on exposition than just talking about what’s what in privacy. There’s so much more he can do to better explain his stances on things if the goal is to explain it to newcomers to the space. **ON THO’S VALUE TO THE PRIVACY COMMUNITY** I respectfully disagree. I have learned a great deal from THO over the years and find his videos extremely informative. He was the main person who burst my bubble about Apple being private. And what I appreciate about his videos is that he always provides sources for all of his claims. That doesn’t mean he doesn’t make mistakes or that I always agree with him, but overall, it’s unquestionable to me that his voice is a force for good. > [@_TrustyRocinante](#): > > This is generally my beef with companies like Apple, because it is very difficult to quickly leave their ecosystem once you’re all-in. **APPLE & GOOGLE’S DUOPOLY: THE DANGERS OF ECOSYSTEMS** One could argue that it’s difficult to leave most ecosystems once you’re all in. But yes, I 100% agree with you. I personally find it unacceptable that we can’t easily back up any of our devices outside of iCloud and Google Drive. We should be able to back them up to any cloud services, and single apps should allow that as a way to fight back. For example, if I download an e-book reader, I should be allowed to sync and back up my app data to other cloud services. > [@olanography](#): > > It’s easy to mirgrate from one SimpleLogin account to another, **ON SIMPLE LOGIN & INTERNAL MIGRATION** **Are you 100% sure about that? Have you tested it?** Because I know for a fact that [it’s not possible to migrate aliases from one Proton Pass account to another](https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/proton-pass-and-simplelogin-are-separate-services/30706/3). [They have to be done one by one](https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/proton-pass-and-simplelogin-are-separate-services/30706/14), which takes forever if you have hundreds. Moreover, none of the metadata associated with your aliases are transferred in the migration (e.g. the vaults they belong to). It might be different with SimpleLogin, which is why I am asking if you’re sure, because [unbeknownst to most, SL and Proton Pass are separate services.](https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/proton-pass-and-simplelogin-are-separate-services/30706) > [@jonah](#): > > That’s not clickbait. **ON THO’S CHARACTER & CRITICISM OF SPONSORSHIPS** I don’t think the title is misleading. The video is about ecosystems but focuses on Proton. I disagree with THO’s position that ecosystems are inherently bad. At least not in theory. The problem is deliberately locking your users, and yes, even if you don’t lock them, there are vulnerabilities. > [@jonah](#): > > I find it pretty challenging to take YouTubers seriously these days when we do what they do + we do written work + we self-host everything from the ground up in addition to meeting people where they are on big tech platforms + we foster this community for other members to do the same. **Did THO come after PG?** If it’s about accepting sponsors, I can understand the annoyance. I certainly don’t question the value of PG’s work, and I agree that the fact that organizations like Tor and the EFF are willing to work with you speaks volumes. But that doesn’t mean that sponsorships as a financial model are not criticizable. _ **What sponsorships and lack there of says about creators** _ There are huge content creators I absolutely dislike and have no respect for who take zero sponsorships. They platform bigots and spread all kinds of disinformation and misinformation. And yet they refuse to take any sponsors because it goes against their values. Not having sponsors can earn you trust, but obviously on its own, it’s not enough to earn a good reputation. There are also lots of content creators I generally trust who are sponsored. I find their voices extremely valuable, but I also recognize that they could have blind spots when it comes to their sponsors or the industry their sponsors are in. _ **Sponsorships as a model is worth critiquing** _ I think it’s unfair to put all YouTubers in the same bag. When I first started hearing critiques about the sponsorship model, it was specifically in journalism, as lots of independent journalists and media outlets are on YouTube and have podcasts. The criticism I saw came from other journalists, and I think it was warranted. It also makes sense that this criticism would extend to all content creators in general, especially in light of the various controversies there have been with sponsors. That doesn’t mean that content creators who have sponsors are inherently bad, just that they may have conflicts of interest. And as I’ve stated earlier, creators who don’t take sponsors are not inherently good. Some are, in fact, very bad. A single good decision checks one box, but does not automatically earn my trust. > [@SwampTrainer](#): > > Proton don’t owe y’all a single freaking thing unless you’re a paid customer. **EVERYBODY HAS THE RIGHT TO CRITICIZE A PRODUCT THEY USE** Most of the people criticizing Proton are paying users, including myself. And free users also have every right to criticize a product that they use. Maybe not to the same extent, but they have that right. I don’t pay for YouTube. That doesn’t mean I can’t criticize some of their decisions. Especially if it affects me. > [@Anvil](#): > > I really doubt most find it “very easy” to be highly diversified while spending $360/year on an all in one package. For most, that’s a strong incentive to get as much out of those services as you can. Which is why it irks me and others that you can’t pay just for the products you want. I agree. Unless I was rich, and even if I wasn’t, I would want to get as much value for my money as I can if I paid that much. --- ## Post 62 by @PurpleDime — 2025-12-13T21:08:54Z > [@privacyisconsent](#): > > Brave (Brave VPN via Guardian) and Firefox (Mozilla VPN via Mullvad) already have business partnerships for VPNs Is that a good enough reason to partner with a browser, if it’s not typically recommended by the privacy community? > [@privacyisconsent](#): > > Proton only have such a partnership with Vivaldi (interestingly after Vivaldi were forced to give up on a better service in INVISV’s Relay) which gets them more exposure with a slightly different audience (Vivaldi users like customisation afaia). Who forced Vivaldi to give up a partnership with a better VPN? And why? Even so, to me, Vivaldi would have to stand strongly as a privacy browser in order to justify a partnership with a respected company like Proton, and from what I can tell, they don’t. Firefox, and many Firefox based browsers, are customizable. I just don’t get Proton’s decision on this. --- ## Post 63 by @privacyisconsent — 2025-12-13T22:17:27Z > [@PurpleDime](#): > > Who forced Vivaldi to give up a partnership with a better VPN? I meant that the service provider shut down their service and left Vivaldi without a proxy integration. --- ## Post 64 by @PurpleDime — 2025-12-13T22:18:07Z > [@privacyisconsent](#): > > I meant that the service provider shut down their service and left Vivaldi without a proxy integration. Got it. Thanks for clarifying. --- ## Post 65 by @privacyisconsent — 2025-12-13T22:23:02Z I’m curious and so would like to ask, how much is the Visionary plan for Proton’s suite? A surprising number have claimed to be on this plan which seems too many for how expensive I thought it was. I suppose it makes sense if some have been grandfathered into it at lower pricing. Maybe a CheapPrivacyGuides is also in order. --- ## Post 66 by @Menkork — 2025-12-13T22:28:04Z The pricing has changed a little bit, depending upon when you joined, I was an original visionary member, but I downgraded at some point. But I did go back after they opened it back up, and I pay $40 a month for it. Having 6 TB of storage is pretty great, but unfortunately, drive I feel has some pretty significant issues, so I barely even use that and just use another service for files I need frequent access to, and only keep my sensitive files over there. --- ## Post 67 by @anonymous484 — 2025-12-14T01:54:35Z > [@PurpleDime](#): > > How does Proton fail to retain me if I already pay for one product and wish to pay for a second one instead of the whole suite? It is not about failing to retain you, its about making it hard for you to leave. For most people it would be relatively easy to leave an ecosystem if they only rely on it for one service but, if you rely on it for 3 or 4 or 5+ services all of a sudden the switching costs (and a lot of the time financial cost) to switching becomes much more in Protons favor. > [@PurpleDime](#): > > Why force me to pay for Proton Unlimited or create a second account when, in both cases, Proton is getting more money from me? Forcing people to buy more services then they need, increases the chances dramatically that people will end up using those services because they paid for them and in doing so, they become more reliant on Proton as they integrate more into Protons ecosystem. --- ## Post 68 by @anon69871701 — 2025-12-14T02:36:09Z I dislike ecosystems that lock people in. It leads to problems like this: [Apple has locked my Apple ID, and I have no recourse. A plea for help | Hacker News](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46252114) Ideally, if Proton offered an easy way to switch away from them (CLI and GUI ways to do automated backup/export) and open sourced their implementations (to prevent them from arbitrarily changing their license and locking users in one day), it would reduce those anxieties for me. Since it does neither, and in fact makes it actively hard to export data and use their apps on platforms like Linux, I advise everyone against them. Offerings like Ente do what Proton does, but 10 times better with better cross platform support, open source implementations, sustainable pricing, and hyper focus on improving application for feature parity with established applications (Ente works better for me than iCloud ever did, eventually helping me ditch that platform entirely). Proton is also bad faith when it comes to claims, with open source plastered across their websites yet their calendar was closed for a while, their repos lag behind in updates, and some claims like Lumo being fully open source are easily verified to be false. Their backends are closed source, their infrastructure is unknown, their default connections and telemetry is undocumented, their apps are not reproducible, their servers are not verifiable, and yet they claim to be able to support at risk people. This is dangerous rhetoric that seems irresponsible overall, especially with their issues with the French activists, the Phrack incident, and other accidents which do not evoke trust. Proton either needs to overhaul their offerings, or tone down their marketing. Doing neither leaves a sour taste in my mouth. --- ## Post 69 by @anon12918199 — 2025-12-14T06:45:01Z Proton seems to have mostly open sourced most of their clients now. It sounds like you’ve seen: [Proton Mail · GitHub](https://github.com/protonmail) They have a mail export script here: [GitHub - ProtonMail/proton-mail-export](https://github.com/ProtonMail/proton-mail-export) I do think you have a point about them not making it easy to switch away. You need to use a custom email domain, export your emails with that script above and use third-party proton drive [Proton Drive](https://rclone.org/protondrive/) stuff if you’re on Linux. Not a great experience. I don’t think server code being closed source is a flag. They’re a business, so why would they open source the entire platform for somebody to copy/paste? Also open sourcing server code does not prove that, that code is actually running in prod. --- ## Post 70 by @privacyisconsent — 2025-12-14T08:40:53Z > [@anon12918199](#): > > I don’t think server code being closed source is a flag. They’re a business, so why would they open source the entire platform for somebody to copy/paste? Note that this is exactly the case for Bitwarden, Ente’s suite, Peergos, Addy/SimpleLogin, AmneziaVPN, Adguard, LanguageTool, Standard Notes, ForwardEmail and more. If anything, in an ideal world you might **only** recommend services that also allow you to migrate to your own self-hosted instance. --- ## Post 71 by @PurpleDime — 2025-12-14T09:36:18Z > [@anonymous484](#): > > It is not about failing to retain you, its about making it hard for you to leave. I get that, but a paying user who only pays for one Proton service, and wants to pay for a second is entrenching themselves even more into the ecosystem, so why force them to dig their heels deeper than they want to, when they are already making a stronger commitment than before. > [@anonymous484](#): > > Forcing people to buy more services then they need, increases the chances dramatically that people will end up using those services because they paid for them and in doing so, they become more reliant on Proton as they integrate more into Protons ecosystem. So why not do the same with SimpleLogin, Lumo, and Standard Notes? They’re not being consistent. --- ## Post 72 by @Anvil — 2025-12-14T13:06:20Z > [@privacyisconsent](#): > > in an ideal world you might **only** recommend services that also allow you to migrate to your own self-hosted instance. This why Disroot’s mission with Lacre is far more noble in my view than Proton’s encrypted email service. Disroot is trying to make something that everyone can benefit from regardless of whether they use Disroot. Meanwhile Proton is trying to make something for Proton users and only Proton users. In other words projects like Disroot want the world to have privacy. Proton wants the world to use Proton. There’s also cryptpad, to add one more to your list. --- ## Post 73 by @anon57862721 — 2025-12-14T13:40:19Z > [@Anvil](#): > > In other words projects like Disroot want the world to have privacy. Proton wants the world to use Proton. I don’t know what kind of worldview you hold to say it like that and think of it in those terms. Proton has a for profit wing within its non profit to make money. What’s wrong with that for the tools they provide for your privacy and security needs? --- ## Post 74 by @Anvil — 2025-12-14T13:47:21Z I don’t think you understand what I meant. There’s nothing “wrong” with Proton tools purely from a privacy and security perspective. But their mission is not as noble as Disroot because they don’t share what they create. Much of Proton client software is open source, but they don’t follow open source philosophy in many ways. Disroot’s main goal is to create tools that enhance privacy everywhere. Proton’s main goal is to improve the privacy and security of Proton, and then for as many people to use Proton as possible. --- ## Post 75 by @anon57862721 — 2025-12-14T13:53:13Z > [@Anvil](#): > > here’s nothing “wrong” with Proton tools purely from a privacy and security perspective. But their mission is not as noble as Disroot because they don’t share what they create. That’s exactly what I was trying to bring attention to. Why must one think of it in terms of nobility? Why frame it or ask it or think of it like that? > [@Anvil](#): > > Much of Proton client software is open source, but they don’t follow open source philosophy in many ways. There’s a case to be made that they follow enough to be labeled as a company providing open source tools. But some of the purists may think unless absolutely 100% of everything is open source (server side included), a company should not claim it is providing open source tools. This depends on your philosophical bend. > [@Anvil](#): > > Proton’s main goal is to improve the privacy and security of Proton, and then for as many people to use Proton as possible. I still don’t get why you think Proton’s goal is not to provide privacy and security forward tools for all and why you think the primary goal of the company is to safeguard themselves and then the users. To me they are doing the same as any other company making privacy conscious software in the space. There are some differences in approaches but the end result benefits everyone who chooses to use them. I don’t see a need to further fragment the how’s or why’s or what’s within the approaches each may have that differentiates them from others in the same space. – I think we’d be overthinking unnecessarily to be this pedantic with an evaluation of this. But that’s just me. From a consumer POV, they all make great tools. And I’m happy they exist for all to use. --- ## Post 76 by @Anvil — 2025-12-14T14:01:29Z > [@anon57862721](#): > > Why must one think of it in terms of nobility? Why frame it or ask it or think of it like that? I got into privacy and open source software because of my politics. I won’t get too deep into that, but essentially I don’t choose what software to support purely based on privacy and security. I choose to support the software I think is most aligned with my vision for the world. It’s called prefiguration. > [@anon57862721](#): > > There’s a case to be made that they follow enough to be labeled as a company providing open source tools. But some of the purists may think unless absolutely 100% of everything is open source (server side included), a company should not claim it is providing open source tools. This depends on your philosophical bend Again you’re not understanding my meaning. The ethos behind open source is creating tools that anyone can use and benefit from. Because Proton server software is closed source, you have to sign up with Proton to benefit from the work that Proton is doing. > [@anon57862721](#): > > I still don’t get why you think Proton’s goal is not to provide privacy and security forward tools for all and why you think the primary goal of the company is to safeguard themselves and then the users. Because most of their tools are only available to those who give Proton money and whom Proton allows to use their service. And they are in practice just a for-profit company. --- ## Post 77 by @anon57862721 — 2025-12-14T14:06:12Z Alright. Duly noted. I won’t say too much on that and derail the discussion. Thought I disagree with how you’re seeing it. > [@Anvil](#): > > Because most of their tools are exclusive to those who give them money And isn’t this objectively incorrect? Every tool they have can be used for free to an extent and only for free for those who do not or cannot or are unable to pay for it. There is no exclusivity here from Proton with their tools such that only paying users can use them. --- ## Post 78 by @Anvil — 2025-12-14T14:12:10Z > [@anon57862721](#): > > And isn’t this objectively incorrect? Every tool they have can be used for free to an extent and only for free for those who do not or cannot or are unable to pay for it. It’s great that people can use Proton for free to an extent, but as we have seen, that is conditional. You have to follow their rules and their terms of service. If you have higher needs but you can’t afford a paid plan, you’re shit out of luck. If Proton gets acquired or changes direction or shuts down, all the work they put into creating secure and private software can be easily lost to the world. If someone has an idea for how to change Proton’s software and make it better, they can’t without building their own version from scratch. Your freedom to use the software Proton creates is significantly curtailed by the limitations they impose. --- ## Post 79 by @anon69871701 — 2025-12-14T14:15:54Z > [@anon12918199](#): > > open sourced most of their clients now Yet delays in source release abound, check: 1. [Reddit - The heart of the internet](https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/ylz71d/outdated_source_code_in_the_public_github/) 2. [Reddit - The heart of the internet](https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/1olh7yv/why_github_source_is_not_updated/) And calendar and Lumi both were not open source all the while they shouted across their socials that they were. It is, by definition, lying. Not even a new issue, Proton has always kept source code in bad condition. > [@anon12918199](#): > > mail export No way to setup automatic exports. If you use the tool you will find the output in generally messy (threads lost, conversations split). > [@anon12918199](#): > > Not a great experience There is no experience available on Linux at all. Second class citizens across products. > [@anon12918199](#): > > server code being closed source is a flag. Plenty of successful products with open source backends. This always confuses me about why people evangelize for it. Why is Proton hogging all the grants and user money by advertising “fully open source” when it is not? Seems like the kind of deception Microsoft pulls with .docx format. There are actual projects struggling with money that are doing meaningful work this whole time, but Proton dunks on them constantly by citing stuff like audits (left plaintext backups in their authenticator, and XSS on their web crypto vulnerabilities despite all the pomp and show), not giving them user mindspace using their platforms (Ente’s friends initiative is excellent, so is Tuta’s advertising for others (as bad as Tuta’s technical posts are)), etc. is just pathetic. This is not Proton being a better product too, this is Proton just constantly lying and unaware users being held hostage by a company that can rugpull any day. They have also embraced the extend embrace extinguish by buying Standard Notes (competitor of Pass), hijacking and splitting openPGPjs (breaks compatibility with other versions) There are genuinely users out there who think Proton will save them from NSA, that their VPN will hide their activism, and that their stack is open source. This is a fraud on users, but because it is one of the biggest privacy companies around most people in the space do not want to confront them. Their marketing, and their proponents, seems misleading at best and complicit at worst to me. > [@anon12918199](#): > > Also open sourcing server code does not prove that, that code is actually running in prod. This is unrelated to it being open source or not. I do not have to certify their servers are running the correct code when I can just hold the threat of forking against attempts at enshittification. Open source servers solve a different problem than the one you point at. Server verifiability is also something Proton should do since they advertise to at risk people, but that is neither here nor there in a discussion about open source servers. --- ## Post 80 by @anon57862721 — 2025-12-14T14:21:47Z First, can we admit you were factually inaccurate with what and how Proton offers its products seeing how you said it? > [@Anvil](#): > > You have to follow their rules and their terms of service. If you have higher needs but you can’t afford a paid plan, you’re shit out of luck. This literally applies to every company and their products. Nothing new here. Why are you saying it like this is news? Also, so? You’re literally describing an issue of… life. If you don’t follow the rules set by the society, you’re either forced out or are forced to behave. Same analogy/principle applies here with any software or product or tool one uses. > [@Anvil](#): > > If Proton gets acquired or changes direction or shuts down, all the work they put into creating secure and private software can be easily lost to the world. This cannot happen by law because of their transition to a non profit. Read more here: [Proton is transitioning towards a non-profit structure | Proton](https://proton.me/blog/proton-non-profit-foundation) I believe you are misguided in your beliefs and thinking to some extent. > [@Anvil](#): > > Your freedom to use the software Proton creates is significantly curtailed by the limitations they impose. If I want to go out and hurt a person, my freedom is curtailed by the rules imposed by the laws and society in which I reside. Do you not see the fallacy in your argument or logic? Also, that’s exactly what software licenses are meant for - to allow or now allow you to do things with it. :confused: I don’t know where you’re coming from with these views. But I don’t wish to continue on this further. I’m not here to convince anyone of anything but I believe I have pointed out enough for you to at least see where you’re misguided. Please reformulate your thinking is all I’ll say. --- ## Post 81 by @Anvil — 2025-12-14T14:32:59Z > [@anon57862721](#): > > First, can we admit you were factually inaccurate with what and how Proton offers its products seeing how you said it? Can we stop inserting the word factually for no reason? I don’t mean to be rude but it really doesn’t add anything. I’m also not sure what you’re referring to. > [@anon57862721](#): > > This literally applies to every company and their products. Not Disroot, because even if you can’t use their service for some reason, you can use the software they create and other services can host the software they create. Same with many many other open source projects. > [@anon57862721](#): > > This cannot happen by law because of their transition to a non profit. A nonprofit owns the for profit company, which I believe does protect the for profit entity from being acquired in the traditional sense, although I’m not exactly familiar enough with Swiss law to say so for sure. But nonprofit leadership can easily change hands or change direction and Proton could shut down for any other reason, so that doesn’t really change the point I was making. > [@anon57862721](#): > > But I don’t wish to continue on this further. Same --- ## Post 82 by @anon32162901 — 2025-12-14T14:58:28Z RE: Non-Profit Proton basically follows the blueprint pioneered by Rolex. Start a non-profit to handle stewardship of the profit making entity, have controlling stake owned by members of the founding family/group (I think Swiss laws help here to some extent, because controlling stake doesn’t have to be majority stake, but IANAL so don’t quote me on this), protect yourself from external pressures, and enjoy the tax benefits as a bonus, Rolex leverages it these days to limit production and maintain scarcity, increasing desirability as a result, pretty much the opposite of what the founder wanted, which was to make competent “tool watches” that were expensive purely because of their accuracy/quality/reliability. Essentially, non-profit status prevents others from screwing with your for-profit business from the inside, but you’re still free to screw it up yourself. --- ## Post 83 by @anon69871701 — 2025-12-14T15:04:55Z Look at OpenAI. Swiss non profits are no different. I also think all the virtue signalling about Non profit is along the same lines as “we are audited”, “we are swiss”, and other ideas they sell. Evil will do evil regardless of “do no evil” being their mission statement (look at Google advertising), so I do not get why a non profit magically hand waves away serious questions about sustainable mission. --- ## Post 84 by @anonymous484 — 2025-12-14T16:45:23Z > [@PurpleDime](#): > > so why force them to dig their heels deeper than they want to, and they are already making a stronger commitment than before. You are getting to caught up into an individual example. The strategy is about what works on millions of users. > [@PurpleDime](#): > > So why not do the same with SimpleLogin, Lumo, and Standard Notes? The way Proton handles Standard Notes in general is just so odd, so I can’t say. SimpleLogin is basically bundled with Pass at this point. Lumo is new product, I am sure more bundling will come. SimpleLogin and Standard Notes are also products Proton bought, not developed themselves so they may have to handle integrating those differently. My guess is SimpleLogin will be completely absorbed by Pass eventually and Lumo will start being added in as an AI assistant into their other products. --- ## Post 85 by @PurpleDime — 2025-12-14T17:04:03Z > [@anonymous484](#): > > You are getting to caught up into an individual example. The strategy is about what works on millions of users. I guess it’s time for those of us who are disgruntled about this decision to [rise up and make noise.](https://youtu.be/wk01z2f5akg?si=gkZk1UvhZdOYy0Rz&t=298) > [@anonymous484](#): > > SimpleLogin is basically bundled with Pass at this point. Premium access to one gives yo premium access to the other, but [Proton Pass and SimpleLogin remain and will continue to be separate services.](https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/proton-pass-and-simplelogin-are-separate-services/30706) Proton Support told me as much themselves, numerous times. > [@anonymous484](#): > > My guess is SimpleLogin will be completely absorbed by Pass eventually That’s not what they told me, and I believe them. Proton essentially told me that they want people who have no interest in Proton Pass or any other Proton service, to be able to use SL login as a standalone service. > [@anonymous484](#): > > SimpleLogin and Standard Notes are also products Proton bought, not developed themselves so they may have to handle integrating those differently. Yes, that is a factor, but it is not the case of Lumo. And I bet it won’t be the only native Proton product that will have the option to be added on. And it’s clear that that decision has more to do with ~~greed~~ profit motives, rather than what is best for the user. --- ## Post 86 by @win11.shading291 — 2025-12-14T17:18:52Z I’m surprised no one mentioned the concept of Trust in this thread (or I might have missed it). We all use privacy tools based on trust. If it’s closed source, then it means you trust the developers. For example, PG trusts 1password with their words. And there is nothing wrong with that as trust is unique to each individual. What open source means is that you don’t have to trust words, you or someone else can audit the code. This is transparent and objectively adds trust to a project. One of the biggest critique of Proton is that they are saying they are open-sourced and in a lot of instances, it was demonstrated that they were actually not. This is lying and breaks trust. I’m a paid Proton customer and this to me is irky. I’m not saying everyone should stop using Proton because of it, but at least have an exit strategy as others mentioned here, just in case. I should work on that too, because I don’t have an exit strategy for my aliases. Blindly trusting Proton because “they’re the good guys” might shock some people if they do end up in the enshittification path. --- ## Post 87 by @anonymous484 — 2025-12-14T17:48:53Z > [@PurpleDime](#): > > it’s clear that that decision has more to do with ~~greed~~ profit motives, rather than what is best for the user. :100: That being said…I am still a happy Proton Unlimited user. Its healthy to be able to like a product but realize the company could be doing better. --- ## Post 88 by @anon98749087 — 2025-12-14T18:06:45Z > [@win11.shading291](#): > > I should work on that too, because I don’t have an exit strategy for my aliases. tldr: are there any solutions for aliasing that allow you to reply from the alias address and integrate as well with mail and password manager? Are there any strategies people are using to deal with this? This is the key thing keeping me in proton ecosystem at this point. The email and aliasing are so well integrated with proton pass. if you trust them (i waver on this, personally) it’s a great product. ever since switching to linux a couple years ago, the value of my proton subscription has plummeted. literally no way to use proton drive as intended (please do not suggest unofficial community apps to handle my password manager and drive). i would love to be switching to services who actually care about privacy and security. services that are providing full verifiable builds. services that are developing for linux (the only mainstream desktop os that properly respects privacy and user autonomy). releasing flatpaks for their apps so there is a decent sandbox and less fragmentation within linux. proton is nowhere near this. even the apps they have for linux need to be manually updated. they can’t even be bothered to offer them in a repository like mullvad or brave. the linux proton pass app randomly stopped auto locking a while back and the official response from the company was “it will only auto lock once you minimize it”. it’s just lazy, and there is really no end in sight for the linux dysfunction. their whole “there aren’t enough linux devs to do this work” excuse is total hogwash, they just don’t care about offering the service because they are interested in profit and not making their products usable for all. i’m tired of waiting and would rather give my money to someone else. --- ## Post 89 by @anon82422799 — 2025-12-14T18:16:35Z Wow. I don’t think that I have ever seen a forum thread that is so evenly split 50/50 on opinions related to one particular topic. --- ## Post 90 by @anon57862721 — 2025-12-14T18:19:50Z We privacy folk are an opinionated bunch. And we have an opinion on everything. Welcome to the forum! --- ## Post 91 by @Anvil — 2025-12-14T18:20:26Z > [@anon98749087](#): > > tldr: are there any solutions for aliasing that allow you to reply from the alias address and integrate as well with mail and password manager? If you have a custom domain this is easy with pretty much any provider. Actually Proton kind of uniquely makes working with a custom domain a nightmare compared with other providers if you use their basic Proton plus plan. --- ## Post 92 by @resplendent606 — 2025-12-14T20:13:07Z The size of Proton is what makes me nervous to use it. I also don’t buy their marketing to be a “private” email. It is impossible for them to offer a truly private email by the very nature of how email works and more appropriate (honest) marketing would be the promise to be a “more private” email than most other email services. I suspect they wish to be Google. Google once had the “do no evil” motto that I once trusted with most of the data in my life and I would be afraid Proton would follow the same path. It is hard for me to trust any large corporation at this point, especially with the amount of data Proton has access to. Don’t get me started with their llm product. For new users, I would recommend to not use email for anything that is secretive and instead communicate through a different method, like signal or matrix. Of course, we have to have email to be part of modern society and so I would recommend to look for groups that might align with your beliefs or interests instead. For my friends, I recommend Disroot and other smaller organizations. --- ## Post 93 by @PurpleDime — 2025-12-15T04:57:31Z > [@resplendent606](#): > > The size of Proton is what makes me nervous to use it. I also don’t buy their marketing to be a “private” email. When it comes to Proton Mail, I think their marketing is fairly accurate. But the reality is, most Proton Mail users probably don’t encrypt most of the emails they send to non-Proton addresses. IMO, this practice needs to change, in that us Proton users should keep the percentage of non encrypted emails we send to a minimum, at least when it’s sent to Big Tech domains (Google, Microsoft, Yahoo, etc…). This is why all my emails to businesses and big tech addresses are with aliases and not my Proton address. Proton and other privacy companies believe and advocate for privacy as in E2EE by default. They should continue to strive for that. IMO, emails sent to customer support from a Proton address should be E2EE, but they’re not, and it’s not clear why. Maybe it’s a hard problem to solve, which I can appreciate, but I hope Proton tries to solve it. With Tuta, emails sent to support are E2EE because their support address is a Tuta address. It’s possible that Tuta is able to do this because they are relatively small compared to Proton, but as they grow bigger, it might become harder. As a paying Tuta user, I can tell you that unless you are in the top paying tier which I have no experience with, responses are quite slow. It can take a month or more to hear back from them. --- ## Post 94 by @SwampTrainer — 2025-12-15T05:22:35Z In fact, I did watch the video. And I wasn’t responding to an individual other than the post. I did forget that the creator of the video is “The Hated One” and not saying that about Proton - was a bit distracted while coming back to write the comment. Doesn’t change the fact that other than the crypto wallet, I can disagree with the video. Vendor lock-in is a user’s bad choice to make or not. I have my email with Proton and a custom domain that is registered with not my Proton account because that would be foolish. Having a custom domain is only portability of the address that transcends vendors when you don’t lock your keys in the car in the process. --- ## Post 95 by @anon12918199 — 2025-12-15T05:24:23Z I do agree with you (koocmit) and I think Proton as a company are pretty shitty in a lot of ways and they are conducting fraud (maybe not in a strictly legal sense?) with their advertisement. I’m trying to provide an explanation here as I see it of why Proton does what they do from a business perspective. > [@anon69871701](#): > > Plenty of successful products with open source backends. This always confuses me about why people evangelize for it. I would argue that those businesses have a different audience and that none of them are as successful as Proton. By open sourcing your backend you open yourself to a lot more scrutiny and intellectual theft. Perhaps that trade off is not worth it to most businesses that don’t cater to a hardcore and very technical privacy crowd. Proton wants to be the Google alternative for the masses and they don’t care about the small minority of users that will ever consider self-hosting a Proton stack or consider looking over their backend code. To become a huge successful business you need to have a network effect. Proton’s network effect is their ecosystem where their products work well together and it encourages existing users to bring in non-Proton users to join (ex. sharing albums/docs, encrypted email). I don’t see a world where businesses like bitwarden or ente could become billion dollar businesses (outside of inflation) any time soon, but Proton is (~$2 billion). To me, all of Proton’s product decision center around building a highly profitable business and they shouldn’t necessarily paint them as “bad” or untrustworthy. The irony that Proton is owned by a non-profit company is not lost on me here. As it is now, I haven’t noticed any enshitification in Proton’s products, but they could be a lot better. I’ve been looking at ente/tuta/mailbox a lot today and after testing them out I can’t imagine switching from Proton. The value proposition that is offered (~$4/month for me) is worth it to stay subscribed. --- ## Post 96 by @anon57862721 — 2025-12-15T08:22:20Z > [@PurpleDime](#): > > IMO, emails sent to customer support from a Proton address should be E2EE, but they’re not, and it’s not clear why. Because they use Zendesk CRM on their back end to resolve customer problems. --- ## Post 97 by @win11.shading291 — 2025-12-15T17:55:25Z > [@anon98749087](#): > > tldr: are there any solutions for aliasing that allow you to reply from the alias address and integrate as well with mail and password manager? I’m not sure, I’ll probably migrate manually if there is no easy way to do it. I’ll check AliasVault or [Addy.io](http://Addy.io).