# Recommending apple products **URL:** https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/recommending-apple-products/10815 **Category:** Site Development **Created:** 2022-12-09T03:22:47Z **Posts:** 79 ## Post 1 by @sbeve — 2022-12-09T03:22:47Z - Apple introduce E2EE for iCloud services with the new advance data protection features alongside adding support for security keys and iMessage Contact Key Verification. - This includes; Photos, iCloud and message backups, bringing the total of 21 E2EE supported services. - E2EE have been a key feature among privacy focused tools and even [PG believes as a necessary requirement of such tool](https://www.privacyguides.org/basics/common-misconceptions/#privacy-focused-solutions-are-inherently-trustworthy). - By recommending apple products, it is a much nicer way to introduce people to the world of E2EE. They don’t have to switch to product with concern of loosing comfort/convienience. - The current of recommend privacy phone being a Google Pixel + custom rom. Many people don’t have time to tinker with these tools. - Apple made this an opt-in feature. As for the reason; [pointing to the lack of understanding about E2EE](https://youtu.be/M4ZOkWaDxfw?t=213)(which is true, I have lost many data because I thought the key wasn’t important) - Apple made E2EE easier by introducing [recovery contacts](https://youtu.be/M4ZOkWaDxfw?t=165) in addition to recovery keys - Further, PG could educate such people about E2EE(specially about how to save the key securely and importance of E2EE). - The more people use E2EE, the more pressure on other services to implement it where needed. - Apple collects analytics, and I’m not saying it is a good. However, it is not even in the same league as Google and Facebooks, systematic surveillance. - ~~PG already recommend Apple Health service~~ --- ## Post 2 by @anon30510143 — 2022-12-09T03:24:21Z Definitely planned! Hope to get the PR going soon. --- ## Post 3 by @jonah — 2022-12-09T03:50:13Z > [@404](#): > > PG already recommend Apple Health service. This is not true. --- ## Post 4 by @sbeve — 2022-12-09T03:56:35Z oof, my bad. Maybe it was somewhere else. --- ## Post 5 by @Reforest7662 — 2022-12-09T04:25:39Z The same Apple which scans photos and messages in the name of CSAM? The one that monopolizes advertising? The one with an entirely closed ecosystem? The one with closed, blackbox phones which constantly listen in through programs like Siri? The one with [non-working](https://gizmodo.com/apple-iphone-analytics-tracking-even-when-off-app-store-1849757558) privacy protections? The one that only patches its [latest](https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2022/10/apple-only-commits-to-patching-latest-os-version.html) OS version? The one where if you turn an iPhone off, most of its wireless chips [stay](https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3507657.3528547) on? The one that has been exposed as working with intelligence agencies through the Snowden leaks? The one that did not integrate E2EE into iCloud in the past to aid intelligence agencies? The one that had its iPhone locking mechanisms broken by law enforcement? These are mostly off the top of my head. This is not to say the road to online privacy is anywhere it needs to be in order to be accessible to everyday people. It absolutely isn’t. But recommending Apple devices principally based on marketing and the recent E2EE is just… sad to see. --- ## Post 6 by @anon30510143 — 2022-12-09T07:33:31Z So Apple never actually implemented the CSAM scanning, and in fact has officially cancelled it: [After a year in limbo, Apple quietly kills its controversial CSAM photo-scanning feature | Macworld](https://www.macworld.com/article/1428633/csam-photo-scanning-icloud-iphone-canceled.html) They do not constantly listen through Siri, in fact Siri is handled fully on-device without sending anything to Apple. The privacy toggle thing is a bit fuzzy, technically they only claimed that it turned off the phone telemetry not app telemetry but it was a bit confusing. We’ll see how the lawsuit pans out. They absolutely do patch older version of iOS and macOS. The only “officially” supported version is the latest version, but they do put out patches for older versions all the time. They allow much older devices to run the latest version, so you’re getting generally longer support than any Android device and on the latest version as well. So when you enable Find My, it’s true that turning the phone off will still allow it to be tracked. If you turn off Find My this won’t happen, but obviously you wouldn’t want someone who steals your phone to stop you from being able to find it just by turning it off. Yes the US government does pressure companies like Apple not to implement E2EE. While I wish they would have done it sooner, something like this is actually a pretty bold move when you consider that neither Google nor Microsoft offer E2EE cloud storage. Yes iPhones have been exploited in the past and will continue to be in the future. All devices have exploits, this is not unique to Apple. It’s not really going to be a “recommendation” per se but more of an overview of the security/privacy features and drawbacks of iOS and macOS and based on that information the reader can decide if it fits their threat model. --- ## Post 7 by @sbeve — 2022-12-09T10:39:36Z You can always shoot this down as, “This Not enough! They still do x,y, and z”. Just think how huge this is. Apple just allowed over 1 billion people to use E2EE(down to the photo you take) without loosing comfort/convienience. In a way, they improve E2EE. Now with recovery contacts, you can turn on this for people who aren’t technically proficient. > [@anon30510143](#): > > Yes the US government does pressure companies like Apple not to implement E2EE. Not just US, specially in here when government pass [anti encryption laws](https://youtu.be/eW-OMR-iWOE). Major props to Apple. Again, this is not just a win to who just own iDevice. This is an area where others may follow Apple’s lead. This is progress. --- ## Post 8 by @Reforest7662 — 2022-12-09T14:42:34Z Thanks for the response, I learned some things. I still have no love for Apple and don’t think a black box like it should be lauded by people despite the E2EE improvements, but an overview sounds alright. --- ## Post 9 by @Phvqkrpa2khYhnS5wA7kLVpg_Zes — 2022-12-09T18:16:46Z Agreed. I do not like Apple and would never use it. I would also never recommend it. But there clearly exists a potential audience of Apple users who are/could be interested in privacy but have no idea how to go about it. Similarly to the [Windows PR](https://github.com/privacyguides/privacyguides.org/pull/1659), I think an overview on Apple products would be nice, along with blog posts on hardening and privacy configurations you can perform. --- ## Post 10 by @Throwaway — 2022-12-09T22:07:50Z Based on what I read about this I still have a problem. All of your devices need to be on current software to do it. Unfortunately my iPad and MacBook are ancient but I don’t want to replace them. So my iPhone 13 can’t take advantage of this new feature without me disabling iMessage on the old devices which haven’t been supported in years. --- ## Post 11 by @sbeve — 2022-12-09T22:32:53Z > [@Throwaway](#): > > All of your devices need to be on current software to do it. I am not sure. Still worth trying advance data protection in iPhone 13, and see how the other devices handle it. (make sure to store the key in a secure place) > [@Throwaway](#): > > So my iPhone 13 can’t take advantage of this new feature without me disabling iMessage on the old devices which haven’t been supported in years. I recommend disabling iCloud on those devices. However, by doing this you will lose accesses to sync between photos, notes etc. However, you can always Airdrop stuff. --- ## Post 12 by @Throwaway — 2022-12-09T23:38:19Z I’m not prepared to do that yet. I’ll have to leave the encryption turned off for now. --- ## Post 13 by @anon30510143 — 2022-12-10T09:22:57Z Ideally you shouldn’t be using devices that are no longer supported unless you don’t connect them to the internet. Lots of vulnerabilities are fixed with each update; we will most likely recommend against using unsupported devices in the new page. --- ## Post 14 by @dngray — 2022-12-10T10:19:28Z > [@Reforest7662](#): > > The same Apple which scans photos and messages in the name of CSAM? They recently announced it was gone for good, with the plan to do more E2EE. [Apple Kills Its Plan to Scan Your Photos for CSAM. Here’s What’s Next | WIRED](https://www.wired.com/story/apple-photo-scanning-csam-communication-safety-messages/) Their press release is [Apple advances user security with powerful new data protections - Apple](https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2022/12/apple-advances-user-security-with-powerful-new-data-protections/) --- ## Post 15 by @Throwaway — 2022-12-10T16:14:48Z True, but a new MacBook and iPad will cost over $2,000 USD (configured how I want it). That’s a lot to pay for encryption. --- ## Post 16 by @sbeve — 2022-12-10T23:03:05Z Unfortunately yes. Since apple can charge a premium for their products since they don’t have real competition for like the iPad. You do not have to buy iDevice for just encryption, at least that was not in my mind when I bought them. --- ## Post 17 by @anon73250778 — 2022-12-10T23:15:40Z The only Apple product worth exploring is the iPad because there is nothing else occupying in its space. There is no modern Android that actually tries to fight it (that could be flashed with a custom ROM). --- ## Post 19 by @sbeve — 2022-12-10T23:46:19Z > [@anon73250778](#): > > The only Apple product worth exploring is the iPad because there is nothing else occupying in its space. Agree, and when you buy a new apple product it kinda locks you into the ecosystem (surprisingly with no advertising about the other products). > [@anon73250778](#): > > There is no modern Android that actually tries to fight it (that could be flashed with a custom ROM). the Free Software world has had ample opportunity to produce something as carefully assembled, as smooth, and as capable as iOS, and what we got instead was Android Imho. --- ## Post 20 by @Anvil — 2022-12-11T01:12:05Z Fydetab Duo looks nice [https://fydetabduo.com/](https://fydetabduo.com/) > **[Piped](https://piped.video/watch?v=uCa-8isUxno)** > > An alternative privacy-friendly YouTube frontend which is efficient by design. --- ## Post 21 by @Anvil — 2022-12-11T15:09:52Z Hope you add some heavy caveats here. Apple has lied to its users’ faces before, collecting loads of data on iOS when users explicitly request not to be tracked during the setup process ([https://www.scss.tcd.ie/doug.leith/apple\_google.pdf](https://www.scss.tcd.ie/doug.leith/apple_google.pdf)). The recent lawsuit doesn’t inspire trust either. I also find it hard to believe that this iCloud E2EE stuff will apply to Chinese users in any meaningful way, considering that Apple has been more than willing to cooperate with the Chinese government, building separate data centers in China for Chinese users. --- ## Post 22 by @Throwaway — 2022-12-11T17:08:23Z This is slightly off topic but on the Apple blogs the feeling is that Apple has painted themselves into a corner with the iPad. The more expensive ones have the M1 or M2 chips which are desktop-class. But the iPadOS software is holding them back, probably because they don’t want iPads to reduce MacBook sales. With all of this power not being used to its full potential iPads are starting to look like devices in search of a purpose. I’m going to keep my old iPad until I have a compelling reason to upgrade. --- ## Post 23 by @anon30510143 — 2022-12-11T17:30:25Z They still sell iPads with [mobile chips](https://www.apple.com/ipad-select/). I’d say security updates are a compelling reason to upgrade, I mean your iPad might still be vulnerable to something like Pegasus. --- ## Post 24 by @Anvil — 2022-12-11T17:45:53Z Totally agree- the only things I’ve found my iPad to be useful for is taking notes and streaming video, which is pretty comical considering how overpowered it is. @anon30510143 isn’t pegasus only a threat for a tiny number of extremely high-profile individuals? --- ## Post 25 by @anon30510143 — 2022-12-11T17:48:24Z Just used that as an example, there are multiple remote code execution vulnerabilities fixed with each update. --- ## Post 26 by @sbeve — 2022-12-11T20:48:44Z > [@Anvil](#): > > Hope you add some heavy caveats here. Apple has lied to its users’ faces before, collecting loads of data on iOS when users explicitly request not to be tracked during the setup process ([https://www.scss.tcd.ie/doug.leith/apple\_google.pdf](https://www.scss.tcd.ie/doug.leith/apple_google.pdf)). > It is important to note that transmission of user data to backend > servers is not intrinsically a privacy intrusion. For example, it > can be useful to share details of the user device model/version > and the locale/country of the device and this carries few > privacy risks if this data is common to many users since > the data itself cannot then be easily linked back to a specific > user source: [https://www.scss.tcd.ie/doug.leith/apple\_google.pdf](https://www.scss.tcd.ie/doug.leith/apple_google.pdf) I don’t think this is a concern for the average iDevice user. > [@Anvil](#): > > I also find it hard to believe that this iCloud E2EE stuff will apply to Chinese users in any meaningful way, considering that Apple has been more than willing to cooperate with the Chinese government, building separate data centers in China for Chinese users. It is a global release. [Apple said China is no exception](https://youtu.be/M4ZOkWaDxfw?t=301) --- ## Post 27 by @Anvil — 2022-12-11T21:56:59Z > [@404](#): > > I don’t think this is a concern for the average iDevice user. Did you read the rest of the article? That quote is not in any way a reflection of the type of data that Apple collects or the findings of this study. They are simply setting up that section with an acknowledgement that not all data transmission is bad. The summary of the article states: > We find that even when minimally configured and the handset is idle both iOS and Google Android share data with Apple/Google on average every 4.5 mins. The phone IMEI, hardware serial number, SIM serial number and IMSI, handset phone number etc are shared with Apple and Google. Both iOS and Google Android transmit telemetry, despite the user explicitly opting out of this. When a SIM is inserted both iOS and Google Android send details to Apple/Google. iOS sends the MAC addresses of nearby devices, e.g. other handsets and the home gateway, to Apple together with their GPS location. Currently there are few, if any, realistic options for preventing this data sharing. The researchers also reached out to Apple and Google for an explanation. They received no response from Apple, while Google responded with some comments and clarifications. As for E2EE in China, Apple has not made any guarantees. I hope you’re right, but I still have my doubts. --- ## Post 28 by @sbeve — 2022-12-12T04:45:20Z > [@Anvil](#): > > They are simply setting up that section with an acknowledgement that not all data transmission is bad. That is what I am saying. Yes, this is something to point out for people who have a higher threat model. However, for the average person, this is a fair compromise to make for reasons beyond privacy (doubt privacy is the main reason to buy a iDevice for most people). > [@Anvil](#): > > The researchers also reached out to Apple and Google for an explanation. They received no response from Apple, while Google responded with some comments and clarifications. The results speak for itself. I am no surprise apple didn’t respond for comment and Google did. However, this does not mean anything. It is interesting that apple got sued for collecting analytics and Google didn’t i.e. > Google collects around 20 times more handset data than Apple. In 2020 it is estimated that in the US there are 113M iPhone users2 and 129M Android users3. Assuming all of the Android users have Google Play Services enabled then scaling up our measurements suggests that in the US alone Apple collects around 5.8GB of handset data every 12 hours while Google collects around 1.3TB of handset data. ![image](//forum-uploads.privacyguidesusercontent.com/original/1X/ed02cd1e9cc3d803bfbb339f0972af792a04a6e2.png) --- ## Post 29 by @mika — 2022-12-12T05:15:48Z What’s the original source for that graph? Looks like an interesting study. --- ## Post 30 by @sbeve — 2022-12-12T05:37:19Z It is from the study @Anvil brought up. > [@Anvil](#): > > Hope you add some heavy caveats here. Apple has lied to its users’ faces before, collecting loads of data on iOS when users explicitly request not to be tracked during the setup process ([https://www.scss.tcd.ie/doug.leith/apple\_google.pdf](https://www.scss.tcd.ie/doug.leith/apple_google.pdf)). It is however important to note that this was done on android 10 and iOS 13. --- ## Post 31 by @donotspamplz — 2022-12-12T14:09:45Z Apple is a surveillance company. I don’t care how many theatrics the company makes publicly all while cooperating with governments - nothing has changed. Did you see recently where they cooperated with the Chinese government to not lose any manufacturing facility in that county? [Apple limited a crucial AirDrop function in China just weeks before protests](https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/30/apple-limited-a-crucial-airdrop-function-in-china-just-weeks-before-protests.html) No one should be recommending Apple products for any form of privacy - it is a joke to do so. --- ## Post 32 by @donotspamplz — 2022-12-12T14:11:07Z ^ this guy gets it. How come the Team Members here do not? --- ## Post 33 by @donotspamplz — 2022-12-12T15:00:27Z it is a bad idea to recommend Apple products if a user wants privacy – is this real life? --- ## Post 34 by @mika — 2022-12-12T17:45:51Z I don’t think Apple device should be “recommended,” but I think recommendations _for_ Apple devices should be provided since they’re common. Apps, services, how to harden a bit, etc. --- ## Post 37 by @sbeve — 2022-12-13T00:15:19Z > [@xeex](#): > > If you start recommending icloud, facebook messenger and similar apps should also be recommended to avoid hypocrisy. Since they all boast e2ee yet have proprietary clients, unlike telegram, signal, session etc. I am unable to make a clear connection, here. Messenger is a communication platform and iCloud is a cloud service. Are you saying iMessage and messenger? iMessage is E2EE by default including messages, group chats, FaceTime, backups. > [@xeex](#): > > If you start recommending icloud, facebook messenger and similar apps should also be recommended to avoid hypocrisy. Since they all boast e2ee yet have proprietary clients, unlike telegram, signal, session etc. Regarding open source vs closed source, PG has a [page on this](https://www.privacyguides.org/basics/common-misconceptions/#open-source-software-is-always-secure-or-proprietary-software-is-more-secure), and it concludes like this. > When you evaluate software, you should look at the reputation and security of each tool on an individual basis. > To avoid biased decisions, it’s _vital_ that you evaluate the privacy and security standards of the software you use. Kinda feel like this statement is ambiguous. Would like to hear a clarification about this from PG team. --- ## Post 38 by @sbeve — 2022-12-13T00:18:23Z Privacy is a spectrum. Everyone has different needs, threats, and values. For some apple products are great recommendation since it offer great security without loosing comfort/convenience. --- ## Post 39 by @altsetup — 2022-12-13T05:20:13Z > [@xeex](#): > > And, security wise android also has significantly longer support periods. The pixels being 5 years for e.g, from which u can also add an additional year thanks to custom firmware. All iPhones released from 2015 onwards are still supported/updated, it’s already 7 years ([more info](https://www.statista.com/chart/5824/ios-iphone-compatibility/)). --- ## Post 41 by @altsetup — 2022-12-13T19:28:51Z > [@xeex](#): > > with a proprietary client there is literally zero difference between not having e2ee at all, and having it. If there is “literally zero difference”, the police can knock Apple’s door and tell “Hey, we know there is not a real E2EE. Please show us those bad guy’s files in the iCloud”. Right? --- ## Post 42 by @donotspamplz — 2022-12-13T20:39:57Z You don’t get any privacy when you use iFruit. Did you not see how Apple recently bent over backwards for the Chinese government so that the Chinese slave labor camps don’t get shut down because it would hurt iFruit’s profits? Did you not see that they violently beat protesters in China who didn’t want to continue making the iCrap products? Are you not aware that iFruit has actively lobbied against the “right to repair” as they want you to constantly buy their new iTrash when it comes out? This is the privacy guides forum, right? --- ## Post 43 by @sbeve — 2022-12-13T20:41:13Z > [@xeex](#): > > So if you didn’t trust iCloud a couple of years ago, I see no reason to trust it now. iCloud already had E2EE on 12 services (Health data, Payment information, screen time etc). After the Advance data protection update, iCloud bring E2EE on to total of 23 services. > [@xeex](#): > > Sure a random cloud service with about 10 yearly users may not benefit from open source since no one’s going to check the code, but something as big as icloud certainly would. Yea, something like iCloud should get E2EE due to the scale of it. As apple set the standard of what secure cloud service looks like, others may follow apple’s lead, bringing E2EE to the masses. --- ## Post 45 by @sbeve — 2022-12-13T23:11:41Z IDK why I forgot about this. You might be able to [trade in](https://www.apple.com/shop/trade-in) your iDevice and offset the purchase price of a new one. --- ## Post 46 by @Throwaway — 2022-12-13T23:49:38Z So what’s the phone recommendation for mom & dad, or the grandparent who doesn’t understand technology? Telling them to fiddle with custom ROMS is not realistic. I’m happy with Apple and would recommend it. But given the comments here what’s the realistic alternative. Don’t say Android. --- ## Post 47 by @sbeve — 2022-12-14T00:05:47Z imho any iPhone released after iPhone 11(includes iPhone SE gen 2 & 3) is the way to go as of today. I would recommend doing your own research as people have different needs (eg: accessibility). --- ## Post 48 by @anon30510143 — 2022-12-14T00:59:43Z Please keep it friendly as per [rule 3](https://www.privacyguides.org/code_of_conduct/) of our CoC. --- ## Post 49 by @dngray — 2022-12-14T04:20:11Z > [@Throwaway](#): > > So what’s the phone recommendation for mom & dad, or the grandparent who doesn’t understand technology? Telling them to fiddle with custom ROMS is not realistic. Probably either an iPhone or a Pixel. A few of my family members have GrapheneOS, but only because I flashed it on there. The [web usb](https://grapheneos.org/install/web) installer is rather easy to use. (Also [not ROM](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROM) - No Android OS has ever been a “ROM”. They are just “Alternative Android OS” or “non-stock OS”). --- ## Post 50 by @donotspamplz — 2022-12-14T04:24:07Z I second the recommendation for a Pixel running GrapheneOS for any family members. The OS will also push out new updates and ask them to reboot, so you know they’ll always have the latest security patches too. --- ## Post 51 by @dngray — 2022-12-14T04:26:41Z > [@donotspamplz](#): > > I second the recommendation for a Pixel running GrapheneOS for any family members I can understand a counter view, such as if you live thousands of kilometers away, or don’t really want to provide support. That is the important thing, is that they are supported. --- ## Post 52 by @Anon — 2022-12-14T06:41:26Z The guides should have a section for “Apple (devices) privacy tips),” but I believe that explicitly _recommending_ Apple products per se is a bad idea. Apple’s unfree nature is particularly risky, as 98% of it’s code is close-sourced and the App Store (only way to get 3rd-party software on iPhones) is even hostile to copyleft open-source apps. In addition I think Apple likes to sell a false sense of security and privacy just like what antivirus companies do. The type of people who use an iPhone and believe their phone is always secure and private out of the box and protected by Papa Apple are more likely to get infected by some spyware (like NSO’s) and don’t even know as they have this false sense of security. Apple also has a very entangled attitude towards government regulation and requests. With the FBI, Apple sometimes deny and sometimes comply with their requests. In China’s case, Apple gives up protecting its users’ privacy (in this region) so it can continue to manufacture and sell iPhones in China, including: · saving iCloud decryption keys of iPhones sold in China in China, and also · the newly added limitation of iPhones’ AirDrop feature to 10 minutes once the Chinese government asked them after protests erupted in China. I think Apple (and Tim) has grown from the 2015 company that refuses FBI’s request to decrypt phones, to a company that is very weak and soft and repeatedly comply with govt requests. Apple already tried to add E2EE to iCloud once in 2020, but once FBI rejected they quickly removed it. Now they are adding it again, why will the FBI give the green light? I personally don’t trust iCloud’s new “E2EE” encryption and how it’s implemented. Apple’s analytics are also quite suspicious. Once I requested a copy of my account data(you can’t even easily view and delete it online like with [myactivity.google.com](http://myactivity.google.com), you can only request a downloadable copy like with Google Takeouts, and wait some days.) I realized that despite my customization setting set to “off,” still every single link that I clicked and every single search that I performed in Apple media services (App Store, Apple Music, TV, Books, Podcasts, etc.) Were logged and stored permanently and exactly as-is (the search results are linked with my account instead of anonymized. With metadata - system version, time stamp, IP addresses. My account “personal recommendation” setting was set to “off” at all times and that is the only option) What’s even worse than Google is that I tried to get this scary tracking data deleted and found that there was literally no way to only delete the search history; only an option for deleting my account, which will cause everything including the apps I paid for in App Store and my iCloud files and my device warranty to get deleted, so I’m left with no way to clean up my data. With Android I just do “delete all” on [myactivity.google.com](http://myactivity.google.com) and all the Google Play search history are removed, not to say GPlay is not the only way to get apps on Android (Aurora and F-droid as well.) Overall unless you only use Safari to use web apps, you are certainly tracked by Apple. Once you search and download an app such as downloading Firefox from App Store, you get logs like "account UID: xxxxx, IP: xx.xx.xx.xx, device: ‘iPhone 14,2’, time: “20221214T070001:001”, search keyword: ‘Fir’ ", "account UID: xxxxx, IP: xx.xx.xx.xx, device: ‘iPhone 14,2’, time: “20221214T070002:012”, search keyword: ‘Firefo’ " stored permanently without a way to remove them except complete Apple ID deletion. The iPhone + App Store combo definitely creates more analytics and logs than the Android + Aurora Store combo. You can say I’m too paranoid but this is all just personal opinion. Also I’m not getting paid by anyone to write this reply. --- ## Post 53 by @anon73250778 — 2022-12-14T06:49:46Z I really wont call it smooth. I’ve encountered minor gotchas with the installation of Graphene. Their USB-C to USB-C connection wont recognize the device in Linux. I had to purchase a “reliable” third party USB-A to USB-C connector. For a day I was worried I was not able to flash it properly. Custom ROM flashing is certainly not for the faint hearted. --- ## Post 54 by @dngray — 2022-12-14T07:23:20Z > [@anon73250778](#): > > Their USB-C to USB-C connection wont recognize the device in Linux. I had to purchase a “reliable” third party USB-A to USB-C connector That sounds more like your cable issue than an issue with the phone or GrapheneOS. I’ve used GrapheneOS since the days of the Pixel 3a XL being new (May 2019) and never had an issue on Linux. I’ve only ever used cheapish [Ugreen](https://www.ugreen.com/products/60w-usb-c-to-c-fast-charging-cable) cables. Although these days I now use the official Google ones (because those UGreen ones only do 20W as opposed to 30W). I purchased those with Google Play store credit. --- ## Post 55 by @sbeve — 2022-12-14T08:32:37Z I agree with you that this is paranoia, I respect your beliefs and views. However, this does not contribute to having a rational discussion. --- ## Post 56 by @sbeve — 2022-12-14T09:41:24Z That is the thing that make me keep away from using GrapheneOS or recommending to others. In terms of security - Can’t expect a few people to keep up to date with Google within the same exact time. - Can’t trust them to implement features properly as it is not a one-to-one copy of android (android isn’t known to be modular. however, I have not a android dev) - Android is forked, in order to distribute it. This might introduces their own security vulnerabilities. As I didn’t provide any reasons for recommending iOS for @Throwaway post. iOS offer 7+ years of security updates and 5+ years of OS updates (let see how long they support iPhone 8) and also known to release zero-day patches breaking their update policy to older devices. This is on top of defences in many layers of its core OS which includes but is not limited to: XProtect Yara (so you can even add your own rules) Gatekeeper System Integrity Protection (SIP) Malware Removal Tool (MRT) Core Suggestions Incompatible Kernel Extensions (KEXT Exclusions) Application Firewall (cannot be disabled) pf Firewall (BSD firewall, optional) FileVault (high grade encryption of all your data) Core LSKD (kdrl) Flask Security Architecture for flexible mandatory access control File quarantine Deactivation of TPM (where applicable) on a hardware level eficheck Protection against “Juice Jacking” Passwords are hashed then the hash is stored in an inaccessible hardware encryption chip (T2 and Secure Enclave chip onwards) Cryptographic Boot Secure Enclave (T2, etc.) chip Is isolated so even if a host device is compromised the Secure Enclave remains secure Provides hardware control of camera FIPS 140-2/-3 Conformance Validation Certificate 2018 onwards FIPS 140-2 Security Level 1 2019 onwards FIPS 140-2 Security Level 2 FIPS 140-2/-3 Security Level 3 in newer products Access control settings permissions for functions like Screen Recording, accessing Files and Folders, Input Monitoring, and Speech Recognition. Address space layout randomization (ASLR) Device management built into Intel CPUs is blocked and is completely inoperative Ability to deactivate hostile apps worldwide, immediately Apple A12 Bionic and onwards corrects an unexploited hardware exploit in earlier Secure Enclave chips Sign in with Apple Generalized location in Maps App Private translate App Recording Indicators for Mic and Camera Limited Photos Library Access for Selected App Apps forced to Request to Track Enable WiFi Private Address Enable Local Network Privacy Access Write XOR execute (W^X) Kernel Integrity Protection Pointer authentication Device isolation Apple [publishes](https://help.apple.com/pdf/security/en_US/apple-platform-security-guide.pdf) lots of details about how their security designs are implemented. They are pretty open about it, and their designs are well-thought-out and implemented comprehensively: This in on top of the security provides by apple kernal/ All the apple’s OSes are based on XNU kernel (which is [open-source](https://opensource.apple.com/source/xnu/)) allowing apple to share security features across OSes. XNU is a hybrid kernel, containing features of both monolithic kernels and microkernels, attempting to make the best use of both technologies, such as the message passing ability of microkernels enabling greater modularity and larger portions of the OS to benefit from memory protection, and retaining the speed of monolithic kernels for some critical tasks. This is on top of E2EE encryption iCloud(if you choose to use iCloud). This includes 23 services. iCloud Backup (including device and Messages backup), iCloud Drive: Includes Pages, Keynote and Numbers documents, PDFs, Safari downloads or any other files manually or automatically saved to iCloud Drive, Photos, Notes, Reminders, Safari Bookmarks, Siri Shortcuts, Voice Memos, Wallet passes, Passwords and Keychain, Health data, Home data, Messages in iCloud, Payment information, Apple Card transactions, Maps: Includes Favourites, My Guides and Search History, QuickType Keyboard learned vocabulary, Safari: Includes History, Tab Groups and iCloud Tabs, Screen Time, Siri information: Includes Siri Settings and personalisation and, if you’ve set up Hey Siri, a sample of your requests, Wi-Fi passwords, W1 and H1 Bluetooth keys, Memoji Unlike other tech companies, apples is built on a [privacy first model](https://www.apple.com/privacy/). Many things are intentionally not encrypted by default so that Google can harvest your information. They do this in the name of providing better service, but Apple has shown that this can be accomplished with on device AI and still provide proper privacy. I am pretty sure Android barely fills a 6th of that. etc, etc… Also, many if not all the stuff I listed [aren’t considered](https://youtu.be/xf2DPY3vGto) by most of the people who buy a iPhone :skull:. --- ## Post 57 by @dngray — 2022-12-14T13:10:13Z > [@404](#): > > In terms of security > > - Can’t expect a few people to keep up to date with Google within the same exact time. The reality is they actually do a very good job of “keeping up” and that is because they test things while they are still in Google’s betas (and not generally available). > [@404](#): > > In terms of security > > - Can’t trust them to implement features properly as it is not a one-to-one copy of android (android isn’t known to be modular. however, I have not a android dev) It might actually surprise you, but GrapheneOS is actually not a whole lot different to the Android AOSP codebase. It’s _one_ of the reasons why they only support Pixels and not a zillion other crappy phones that all have their own bugs and differences. > [@404](#): > > - Android is forked, in order to distribute it. This might introduces their own security vulnerabilities. The reality is it’s less likely to, because they’ve done [significant hardening](https://blog.privacyguides.org/2022/04/21/grapheneos-or-calyxos/#additional-hardening). In fact while doing that they’ve also been credited with some discovery of some vulnerabilities in some of the Android security bulletins. The point is they are a competent team, and it is not in any way fair to compare them with “some random Android OS” you found on XDA. > [@404](#): > > All the apple’s OSes are based on XNU kernel (which is [open-source](https://opensource.apple.com/source/xnu/)) allowing apple to share security features across OSes. The kernel might be open, but basically everything else isn’t. > [@404](#): > > Many things are intentionally not encrypted by default so that Google can harvest your information. While that is true not everything is encrypted by default, don’t buy into the “Google harvests everything” because that isn’t true either. Typically Android users, specifically GrapheneOS variety, use their own tools, or preferred methods rather than depending an an entire ecosystem from one company. There are some specific things iOS does not do, and one of those things is separate user profiles. > [@404](#): > > I am pretty sure Android barely fills a 6th of that. The Pixel devices are pretty good. Simply listing a features page isn’t really all that meaningful. --- ## Post 58 by @ph00lt0 — 2022-12-14T20:11:50Z Not only a good job. They more than often release security patches before Google does. --- ## Post 59 by @donotspamplz — 2022-12-14T20:52:00Z It would be good to have a separate “iSection” for Apple products in the guides with the caveat that using their products to acquire privacy is not completely 100% & that there are better options regarding privacy & security. --- ## Post 60 by @sbeve — 2022-12-14T22:26:32Z Thanks for your answer (and also not just saying apple bad…, apple sells data .. and addressing on limitations of iOS). > [@dngray](#): > > The reality is they actually do a very good job of “keeping up” and that is because they test things while they are still in Google’s betas (and not generally available). Cool. My main concerns, comes from techlore videos (as they do not paint a good picture on android forks). I think I can believe that they keep up with security updates, as pointed out by many. However, it is unfortunate that this momentum is not much seen as Pixel reach EoL. > [@dngray](#): > > While that is true not everything is encrypted by default, don’t buy into the “Google harvests everything” because that isn’t true either. I refer to stock android. I can see how using an android fork allow for better privacy. > [@dngray](#): > > There are some specific things iOS does not do, and one of those things is separate user profiles. I am also curious for more security features that are in android and not on iOS. Regarding user profiles, how this compare apple’s sandboxing that can be seen? How concern as a iOS user, I will be worried about not having a separate user profile? [source](https://help.apple.com/pdf/security/en_US/apple-platform-security-guide.pdf) > All third-party apps are “sandboxed,” so they are restricted from accessing files stored by > other apps or from making changes to the device. Sandboxing is designed to prevent apps > from gathering or modifying information stored by other apps. Each app has a unique home > directory for its files, which is randomly assigned when the app is installed. If a third-party > app needs to access information other than its own, it does so only by using services > explicitly provided by iOS and iPadOS. > System files and resources are also shielded from the users’ apps. Most iOS and iPadOS > system files and resources run as the nonprivileged user “mobile,” as do all third-party > apps. The entire operating system partition is mounted as read-only. Unnecessary tools, > such as remote login services, aren’t included in the system software, and APIs don’t allow > apps to escalate their own privileges to modify other apps or iOS and iPadOS. > [@dngray](#): > > The Pixel devices are pretty good. Simply listing a features page isn’t really all that meaningful. I agree as it is a bunch of jargon. However, it is clear that, - By **default** , iOS 16.2 including the first party apps has more privacy built-in compare to stock Pixel Android 13.X (you will be surprised how many people use the default settings) - iOS 16.2 running on iPhone 14 is more secure from the SoC, kernel and to the application layer and beyond compare to Graphene OS running android 13.X on a pixel 7 I am more than happy to be proven wrong. I dislike how closed iPhone ecosystem is, how apple not allow easy sideloading for cool apps like [UTM](https://getutm.app/), and how iPhone doesn’t offer E2EE android text messages. --- ## Post 61 by @sbeve — 2022-12-14T22:36:24Z I think it is better to have sections like zone 1, zone 2 and zone 3 like in techlore videos than a separate “iSection”. Zone 1: Little impact on convenience and usage Zone 2: Mild impact on convenience and usage Zone 3: For people who looking to go above and beyond or something like this ![image](//forum-uploads.privacyguidesusercontent.com/original/1X/e43241aeeea059658bf5e6b78c421a2ac240cd2d.png) (from [WIRED Guide to Digital Security](https://www.wired.com/2017/12/digital-security-guide/)) --- ## Post 62 by @mika — 2022-12-15T03:41:47Z Yeah, I think this is a really effective way to lay out certain things. --- ## Post 63 by @ph00lt0 — 2022-12-15T08:42:09Z It misses out on family members of the sections or other close relationships. They mostly are a target aswell --- ## Post 64 by @sbeve — 2022-12-15T08:55:16Z Could you provide an example of this, as I am not very sure what you are refering to? --- ## Post 65 by @ph00lt0 — 2022-12-15T10:51:23Z It is often overlooked that people who have close relation to the zones described as activists and journalists are exposed to a very similar threat. I also think that spies being in need of more measures than journalists is a misconception. --- ## Post 66 by @sbeve — 2022-12-15T11:18:28Z Oh okay. > [@ph00lt0](#): > > It’s often overlooked that people who have close relation to the zones described as activists and journalists are exposed to a very similar threat. I can’t relate to this. I can see how this might be the case, however it was not what I was intended to focus on. In reality, while the countermeasures recommended in PG might end up working for some of the people, some of the time, that merely indicates the threat model for those people happens to be similar at the moment. By having like zones might help to differentiate contents that targeted towards a person freak out at pop-ups to a person who prefer privacy-respecting alternatives to popular tools, and advocate for the right to privacy or anything beyond: spy, activist, journalist, politician etc. This is something that need to be well-thought-out and implemented by rethinking the goal, and audience of PG. I wasn’t intending on addressing this in here. --- ## Post 68 by @ph00lt0 — 2022-12-17T08:58:31Z Firstly keep it nice. Secondly we we’re talking about GrapheneOS not apple vs google. --- ## Post 69 by @Lumber0147 — 2022-12-17T10:35:04Z I already discussed this on reddit with different users and I will repeat it here: Stock Android actually allows the removal and deactivation of bloatware and hidden trackers while iOS doesn’t. Even the telemetry toggle doesn’t work. it allows more options and is less restrictive with handling DNS filtering apps. On android you can install alternative appstores and side load apps. Meanwhile on iOS you need an account for that which means you’ll always have an unique identifier attached to your phone and apple can get your data. Stock Android is better in every hindsight. Even with small steps any stock android is significantly more private, like installing the DDG Antitracking Apps and not using a google account by using Aurora Store and disabling/ deinstalling unwanted apps gives you more privacy. Also regarding the mentioned statistics, less data collection doesnt mean that iOS is privacy friendly. In addition a smaller size of data can still contain the same amount of information just wrapped up more effectively. They get enough data directly from your phone and contrary to Android there aren’t many possibilities to prevent that. Its also proven that they collect data about the same things (look up the whole study). Also regarding the arguments that wildly conflate security with privacy in this thread: iOs isn’t more secure than Stock Android: Apps are sandboxed on Stock Android and iOs and therefore completely isolated from the rest of the system. Only the so-called permissions (e.g. camera, calendar, etc.) allow restricted access to certain information/interfaces of the system or user data. While iOs use a Low-Level Bootloader (LLB)/iBoot, Androids security architecture is encased by native protection measures such as Verified Boot. (GrapheneOS) extends the protection mechanisms known from Android, such as Verified Boot, etc., with additional measures. These are supposed to protect the user or the device more comprehensively against the exploitation of unknown vulnerabilities. Among other things, the app sandbox is improved by hardening SELinux and seccomp-bpf policies, making it more difficult for attackers to exploit potential gaps. They’re part of the prism program They disabled the airdrop feature recently which was used by opponents of the regime in China They use proprietary software and their restrictive consumer policies are directly opposed to an open internet and FOSS software, alone for this reason they shouldnt be supported They wanted to introduce Client Site Scanning which would have scanned your device for illegal stuff, apple only repented after massive public backlash As a user you have basically no rights and Apple controls everything. Not to mention their inhuman conditions at their factories with suicide nets attached at the outside of the buildings etc.Contrary to that theres the Fairphone for example which runs with google free Android. Regarding the e2e cloud encryption feature: I dont see how that makes Apple automatically privacy friendly since they still collect a good amount of data from your devices. Whatsapp is also e2e encrypted, yet they collect data from your phone, your contacs etc. Also the encryption is convergent and not zero knowledge. The generated file hashes arent e2e encrypted and can still be linked to the actual data. Their introduced privacy labels are just a placebo > **[Privacy labels fail: Many ‚tracking-free‘ apps in iOS secretly track users](https://netzpolitik.org/2022/privacy-labels-fail-many-tracking-free-apps-in-ios-secretly-track-users/)** > > Apple forces developers give clear privacy information to app users. But according to new research, four out of five tested apps that claim to not collect data from users actually do. Also a huge flaw of iOS is, that its closed source. Contrary to that, apart from proprietary drivers for modems and the like, Android is completely open source. Only when the manufacturers or Google add proprietary components (Google Apps, etc.), the system is closed “in parts”. iOS, on the other hand, is almost completely proprietary (exception Darwin) and thus only allows a limited insight into the source code. Thus, the intransparency of iOS can be criticized, which does not allow an independent evaluation/analysis. Here is another interesting post on reddit with arguments why Apple devices shouldnt be recommended on this site (3 years old but still valid imo: > **[Reddit - The heart of the internet](https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/esl78u/apples_privacy_myth_needs_to_end/)** --- ## Post 71 by @Lumber0147 — 2022-12-17T22:11:07Z > Many of your concerns have already been cleared out. Please consider reading the previous posts for such concerns. I actually did this and found that the majority of users share the same opinions like me on this regards even stating the same facts. > Please consider quoting such relevant arguments. Otherwise, It just wastes everyone’s time This would have gone beyond the scope, I stated enough relevant arguments, this is just an optional source of information for those reading my comment. > This information is irrelevant and off-topic. Please consider creating a new post (consider reading community guideline before doing it) or using a different platform if this concerns you. No i wont :wink: aside from that your use of provocative language shows that you dont have any meaningful counterarguments, hows this response actually “relevant to the discussion” > This makes iOS safer than Google Android? Since, the iBoot has to verify the Bootloader before it is executed by the iOS kernel. Did you read my whole sentence? Stock Android has verified boot both systems are on par security wise and because graphene os enhances the security of Aosp significantly and is foss its ergo a lot more secure than iOs > iOS sandboxing mechanism is more secure and efficient than Android. Its not, as I already stated. Stock Androids sandboxing is just as good. You also didnt deliver a source for that. Stop making baseless claims > What additional measures? Read their website, they provide an extensive FAQ --- ## Post 72 by @anon39816623 — 2022-12-17T23:55:19Z This topic has become more of a fanboy war than anything else. Just use whatever suits your threat model. --- ## Post 74 by @sbeve — 2022-12-18T01:52:00Z I think people are misunderstanding the intentions of this topic. IDK why I have to restate this. I was suggesting recommending apple products for the average person. Apple’s products are already excellent in the areas that they compete in (and there is a high chance that they are using a iDevice). There are might be better alternative to many apple products that has a huge focus on privacy and security. However, they come with compromises. For the average person, apple offer privacy focus features without the concern of loosing comfort/convenience. If you are a person who prefer privacy-respecting alternatives to popular tools, and advocate for the right to privacy you are more than welcome to use them. However, most people aren’t in this position to sacrifice spending time, energy to use them when there is clearly a better way to do this. Many other companies offer similar products and services. However, the main differences being Apple has a better track record, has privacy as one of its ‘values’ and has more privacy-oriented features. I am not saying apple is comparable to a company like proton (at least not yet), however apple is miles ahead compare to Google, ~~Facebook~~ Meta, Microsoft etc. I made a different [iOS vs Android](https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/ios-vs-android/10940/) topic to offer a different place to compare iOS to google android and varies android forks. Since it got brought up in here, and it is make sense to discuss in a different topic. Android and iOS are both great platforms with their own flaws and drawbacks, but also with their own unique abilities and advantages. One platform works better for one person, the other better for another. With that said, I think comparisons are a good idea as it pointing out flaws in each platform, as long as discussions stay civilised. Thank you for understanding. --- ## Post 76 by @dngray — 2022-12-18T12:13:02Z I think this thread has run it’s course. We don’t recommend Apple products, specifically, however, we are looking at providing a guide for people that already have them. While there are some Apple privacy features, it should be understood, that you are at the whim of Apple, and anything can change in the future, leaving you with little control, having said that though, currently as it stands both iOS and macOS, are better alternatives that some barely supported Android device from a lazy manufacturer. --- ## Post 77 by @dngray — 2022-12-18T12:13:14Z --- ## Post 78 by @sbeve — 2022-12-18T10:19:53Z > **[Should You Trust Apple?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLPG-KF3GAc&feature=youtu.be)** > > Apple markets itself as a privacy company. But what does that really mean?They just made some big announcements that will improve the privacy of the average ... [https://yewtu.be/watch?v=uLPG-KF3GAc](https://yewtu.be/watch?v=uLPG-KF3GAc) I think this includes valid conclusion about apple with a great breakdown and analysis. Thoughts? --- ## Post 79 by @dngray — 2022-12-18T13:03:40Z I merged, that video here. TLDR is it’s what was already discussed mostly.