# Privacy/security considerations for anti-virus on Windows 11 for non-technical users? **URL:** https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/privacy-security-considerations-for-anti-virus-on-windows-11-for-non-technical-users/15205 **Category:** Questions **Created:** 2023-11-24T20:23:57Z **Posts:** 53 ## Post 1 by @SteveR — 2023-11-24T20:23:57Z I have some family members who are running Windows 11. I appreciate from a privacy point of view this is already bad. I wish I could get them onto Linux but it’s not happening any time soon. It is what it is and I’d like to do the best I can for their privacy and security. The threat model here definitely excludes any kind of targeted attack. As far as security goes, I’d like to do the best I can to avoid them picking up ransomware, having a virus destroy the system or otherwise losing data. For privacy, I’d just like to reduce the amount of general commercial surveillance and data collection. I’ve seen all sorts of conflicting advice about the need for anti-virus on modern Windows. Does anyone here have any thoughts? The family members in question are not incredibly tech savvy, so my primary feeling is that not having anti-virus is probably a security risk. I could be wrong and would be very interested in thoughts on this. My current inclination is to go with Windows Defender. If I use a third-party anti-virus, that’s another company which gets a chance to pry around in the data on the system. Microsoft already own the OS so if they want to do privacy-invasive things they can, even if I’m not running Windows Defender. So they feel like the least-worst choice. (I appreciate Microsoft might find Windows Defender a convenient point to introduce spyware, so not using it might avoid some prying. But it still seems like the least-worst choice.) --- ## Post 2 by @Valynor — 2023-11-24T20:34:32Z Do _ **not** _ use 3rd party AV programs, almost all of them are malware/spyware. Windows Defender is OK to use and “good enough”. What your/many family members really need is a more security-conscious mindset so maybe try to educate them in this regard. No AV app will save you if someone clicks on everything that’s clickable without a second thought. --- ## Post 3 by @SteveR — 2023-11-24T20:38:01Z Thanks! While they are (sadly) not too interested in privacy, they do have some interest in security and I have done my best to educate them about common risks. But anyone can make a mistake and (although I am interested in counter-arguments) in their case I suspect having AV of some kind as an insurance policy is a net win. --- ## Post 4 by @anon54160479 — 2023-11-24T22:15:25Z The Windows defender is enough --- ## Post 5 by @Thriving4620 — 2024-01-11T22:24:26Z Is there an anti-virus that’s privacy focused for Windows 10/11? I’ve seen some say that Windows Defender is sufficient but I’ve seen and heard of github repositories that can just disable Windows Defender without notification. Compared to an actual anti-virus, it just doesn’t do nearly as much since its so targeted. Any help or suggestions are greatly appreciated, thank you so much :slight_smile: --- ## Post 6 by @Valynor — 2024-01-11T22:28:34Z The general recommendation is to _not_ use any 3rd party AV apps as most of them are, in fact, malware or at least very privacy invasive. Defender is “good enough” and you’re not giving your data to yet another company (and opening up your system to more vulnerabilities - AV apps are very much a prime target now). --- ## Post 7 by @FlipSid — 2024-01-11T22:33:17Z @Valynor does this go for mobile platforms, and the “security apps” that go with it also? --- ## Post 8 by @Thriving4620 — 2024-01-11T22:35:38Z I understood most were privacy invasive, I was just hoping to see if anyone had a suggestion instead of Defender because my trust in it, is very low. In my opinion, I would just replace the invasive nature of Defender to another AV --- ## Post 9 by @Valynor — 2024-01-11T22:37:06Z Even more so since AV apps on iOS/Android are basically completely useless because the OS permission model. --- ## Post 10 by @Valynor — 2024-01-11T22:39:15Z > [@Thriving4620](#): > > I would just replace the invasive nature of Defender to another AV Not replacing but _adding_ a 3rd party company product that will now get your data, too. Maybe think about it this way … no AV app will protect you from a new virus that you just happen to run into at a very early stage. The thing that protects you the best are the usual suggestions: - never click attachments - don’t follow download links, surf to the website yourself - be very mindful where you download software from and whether or not you want to trust the dev For all other things I just use [VirusTotal](https://www.virustotal.com/gui/home/upload) --- ## Post 11 by @Thriving4620 — 2024-01-11T22:58:15Z Yeah, I think I was more looking for an AV that would follow closely to what Cloudflare does with their DNS Privacy Policy as in: - Not logging personal data - Deleting the query data after 25 hours. --- ## Post 12 by @xe3 — 2024-01-11T23:02:04Z > [@Thriving4620](#): > > I understood most were privacy invasive, I was just hoping to see if anyone had a suggestion instead of Defender because my trust in it, is very low. In my opinion, I would just replace the invasive nature of Defender to another AV Why is your trust in it _very low?_ I don’t use Windows (because my trust in it is very low :slight_smile: ) but the last time I looked into it, empirical data / testing showed Windows Defender was about as capable as any of the 3rd party options, and you are already using WIndows, by using Windows you are already implicitly trusting Microsoft, so using Windows Defender does not require trusting any additional 3rd parties you aren’t already placing trust in. My takeaway when I looked into it, was that for people who prefer Windows or are stuck with it, Windows Defender is the _least worst option_ --- ## Post 13 by @exaCORE — 2024-01-11T23:05:56Z Note that PG does recommend the Hypatia malware scanner for android for some use cases. It is trusted and made by the developer of DOS --- ## Post 14 by @Bhaelros — 2024-01-12T09:19:11Z Yeah, common sense is a good way to protect yourself and your computer, but sometimes it is not good enough. Malicious factors are hiding behind web scripts, like when you watch an online video they can silently run in the background, or when you receive an email they can infest the computer simply by opening the email. There are also viruses spreading from other network sources. There are many test scripts available in Github. Just install one VM, isolate it from your network and execute them after updating Windows and WD definitions. It will miss many of these scripts and malicious actions. What I can suggest is, go for a trusted vendor, like Bitdefender instead of Windows Defender. Yes, Windows Defender might be good for daily usage but you can never know what might hit you. --- ## Post 15 by @pinkandwhite — 2024-01-12T09:37:06Z Security in the OS (and the applications that run on it) that’s just part of the software design (e.g., effective sandboxing, hardened memory allocation) will be better than badness enumerators (aka antivirus software). There is no reason to use something other than Defender on Windows _unless_ you’re a business that wants endpoint management alongside just general antivirus functionality. --- ## Post 16 by @user1 — 2024-01-12T09:37:23Z > [@Bhaelros](#): > > What I can suggest is, go for a trusted vendor, like Bitdefender instead of Windows Defender Based on what? Track records are not thrilling > **[Bitdefender | Controversies and incidents](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitdefender#Controversies_and_incidents)** > > On March 20, 2010, computers running Bitdefender under 64-bit versions of Windows were affected by a malfunctioning update that classified every executable program as well as DLL files as infected. These files were all marked as 'Trojan.FakeAlert.5' and were moved into quarantine. This action led to software and systems malfunctions that affected users globally. Bitdefender representatives announced the removal of the faulty update and a workaround for the users affected, except for those In 2020... --- ## Post 17 by @Bhaelros — 2024-01-12T09:50:51Z Their protection rate is still better than others. There is not a single company who didn’t have incidents. Enterprise versions are no different. --- ## Post 18 by @user1 — 2024-01-12T10:39:21Z > [@Bhaelros](#): > > There is not a single company who didn’t have incidents Hence the recommendation to stick with Windows Defender. --- ## Post 19 by @sha123 — 2024-01-12T12:36:24Z Stay away from third-party AVs and use only functionality of Windows Defender which doesn’t violate your privacy (e.g. no MAPS or Sample Submission). Also use MS security baselines (with a few adjustments) and go for a whitelisting solution (e.g. WDAC) instead of blacklisting. --- ## Post 20 by @sha123 — 2024-01-12T12:41:20Z > [@Bhaelros](#): > > Their protection rate is still better than others. There are many AV solutions which have similarly good detection rates and MS Defender is usually among them. So there is no reason to choose something different. See [Test antivirus software for Windows 11 - October 2023 | AV-TEST](https://www.av-test.org/en/antivirus/home-windows/windows-11/october-2023/) Also it’s quite easy to check your downloads below 500MB on virustotal. --- ## Post 21 by @anon73250778 — 2024-01-12T12:41:43Z The era of antivirus software that you are looking for no longer exist. --- ## Post 22 by @Throwitaway — 2024-01-13T00:33:09Z Is not ClamAV decent? Free, decent enough for none super security, resource light. It also downloads the database as you want with no communicating back or ads. --- ## Post 23 by @exaCORE — 2024-01-13T03:37:08Z Yes it is, but it isnt for windows iirc Edit: actually it is i guess --- ## Post 24 by @anon97654407 — 2024-01-13T12:45:37Z > [@exaCORE](#): > > Edit: actually it is i guess Yes, it is. > **[ClamAVNet](https://www.clamav.net/downloads)** --- ## Post 25 by @privacylover — 2024-01-15T02:59:00Z CyberGhost VPN has an antivirus option for an extra £1/month but they only sell it to their VPN subscribers. > **[Best All-In-One Security Suite for Windows (2025) | CyberGhost](https://www.cyberghostvpn.com/download/windows-privacy-suite)** > > CyberGhost's Security Suite is an all-in-one security solution for Windows. Get an antivirus, app scanner, privacy guard, and VPN in one place! --- ## Post 26 by @pinkandwhite — 2024-01-15T06:38:50Z I wouldn’t trust an antivirus from a VPN owned by Kape Technologies (whose name should ring alarm bells for anyone in the privacy community) --- ## Post 27 by @privacylover — 2024-01-15T06:43:31Z SurfShark has a similar product, they only sell it to their VPN customers: > **[Protect your devices with Surfshark Antivirus](https://surfshark.com/antivirus)** > > Surfshark Antivirus protects your devices from viruses, threats, and intrusive apps. Enjoy real-time protection and schedule your scans --- ## Post 28 by @pinkandwhite — 2024-01-15T06:45:26Z And this is a product from a VPN owned by Nord, who has a fun record with security on their own servers… --- ## Post 29 by @privacylover — 2024-01-15T06:47:06Z Malwarebytes? This one is free for everybody. > **[Free Antivirus 2025 | Download Free Antivirus & Virus Scan | 100% Free...](https://www.malwarebytes.com/mwb-download)** > > Download free antivirus: easy install for all devices. Remove unwanted malware like viruses, ransomware, spyware & more. --- ## Post 30 by @exaCORE — 2024-01-15T06:52:17Z This site generally tries to recommend free and open source software. --- ## Post 31 by @Zombie.Turtle — 2024-06-23T11:46:58Z I’ve been using Malwarebytes for several years now. I’ve used other antivirus software programs in the past, such as: Kaspersky, Bitdefender, Norton, McAfee, Panda Security, AVG and Avast. Malwarebytes is the most tolerable so far, and I’m glad I use it. Though, after reading through multiple internet forums and Subreddits, it seems like having one isn’t essential anymore. I’ve seen some say Malwarebytes is like an “extension” to Windows Defender, meaning it isn’t necessary to have unless you can’t seem to live without a third-party antivirus software for whatever reason. I’ve learned that 99.99% of viruses are caused by ourselves–clicking on funny links. Correct me if I’m wrong, please. My renewal is coming up pretty soon. Can the community of Privacy Guides advise me if I should continue using their service? --- ## Post 32 by @anon48875053 — 2024-06-23T11:56:19Z I would go as far as to say that 3rd party AVs cause more harm than good. --- ## Post 33 by @Zombie.Turtle — 2024-06-23T14:47:07Z Even with Malwarebytes? --- ## Post 34 by @anon48875053 — 2024-06-23T14:56:12Z Yes, this applies to all 3rd party AVs. --- ## Post 35 by @Valynor — 2024-06-23T15:56:25Z Just use Windows Defender and your :brain: Almost all 3rd party AVs are malware themselves. --- ## Post 36 by @BionicBison — 2024-06-23T18:41:49Z From my experience, Malwarebytes is still very well-regarded in the general security community. Not so much as a constant background scan (Windows Defender is more than enough for that) but as an occasional spot check with the free version if you think something is wrong, and especially as a way to clean up a less tech-savvy friend or family member’s PC to catch stuff Defender may have missed if they’re in a bad spot (short of reinstalling the operating system if you wish to be 100% sure). On VirusTotal, I often find that Defender may flag something that Malwarebytes doesn’t and vice versa, so they appear to complement each other well. As such, you probably don’t need to pay to have Malwarebytes constantly scanning, but I definitely wouldn’t lump it in with every other scammy Windows antivirus. --- ## Post 37 by @anon46412288 — 2024-06-24T12:50:16Z I would recommend adding a good content blocker to your browser such as [uBlock Origin](https://ublockorigin.com). This should block most of the adware content that could try to sneak in, since bad websites and downloads are the biggest way that malware usually lands on your system. Pair that with general common sense (such as to avoid clicking on random links and ESPECIALLY random downloads) and keeping Windows Defender up to date, and you should have a pretty safe system. --- ## Post 38 by @Zombie.Turtle — 2024-06-26T15:13:00Z Hi, thanks for your reply. I already use uBlock Origin on my installed browsers. I’ve actually used that ad blocker for over ten years now. I haven’t needed to make a switch ever since! @anon48875053 @Valynor Thank you for your insight. I have removed Malwarebytes from my system and cancelled my subscription. @BionicBison I haven’t had any problems with Malwarebytes thus far, but if Windows Defender is good enough without it, I don’t see a reason to spend extra money for a third party software. Your extra insight with VirusTotal + Malwarebytes is informational, thank you. --- ## Post 40 by @ph00lt0 — 2024-06-26T15:37:44Z Pwrhaps it is sensible to add a recommendation on the website to which we can refer given this keeps popping up from time to time. The recommendation being do not install third party AVs --- ## Post 41 by @iamnotamonk — 2024-06-28T01:54:24Z Hypatia and ClamAV. I think that F-Secure, Bitwarden (Free for Android) and Malwarebytes have some good privacy policies. There’s an app on Play Store that offer app scanning with Virus total (just search Virustotal on Play Store) and you can scan files selecting files. Virus total analyzes with 50+ antivirus, although some are not focused on x threat, and some use other engines already used by others, etc. --- ## Post 42 by @anon90279782 — 2024-06-28T06:12:16Z If the mission statement of this place is to provide information, then I think it would be good idea to include security apps like these in the recommendations. Even if you ultimately end up recommending people not do something does not mean it is not a recommendation. It also does not mean it is not helpful for people to know why it is the case, and to let people make their own decisions. Everything we do is about trade-offs — what we are willing to give up in order to gain something else — and this is different for every person. In any case, thanks for all the discourse I have followed here for a while without making an account. --- ## Post 43 by @dngray — 2024-06-28T06:43:04Z > [@privacylover](#): > > CyberGhost VPN has an antivirus option for an extra £1/month but they only sell it to their VPN subscribers. > [@privacylover](#): > > SurfShark has a similar product, they only sell it to their VPN customers: You should read the T&C of these products you’ll find they collect a lot of data to “protect the user”, just like McAfee which has some rather dubious and broad language in it. There’s no surprise that these large VPN companies are entering virus scanner space. Antivirus companies have been trying to enter the VPN space. The reality is you really don’t need either. --- ## Post 44 by @PrivadoQ — 2025-01-23T14:03:27Z What did you end up using? I was thinking of buying a Malwarebytes subscription, and went to read its privacy [policy](https://www.malwarebytes.com/legal/privacy-policy). The part that stuck out to me was: We may disclose personal information to government agencies, law enforcement officials, and private parties as we, in our sole discretion, believe necessary: (1) to satisfy or comply with any applicable law, regulation or legal process; (2) to respond to lawful requests, including subpoenas, warrants or court orders; (3) to protect our property, rights and safety and the rights, property and safety of third parties or the public in general; and (4) to prevent or stop activity we consider to be illegal or unethical. In certain situations, Malwarebytes may be required to disclose personal data in response to lawful requests by public authorities, including to meet national security or law enforcement requirements. “Prevent or stop” activity sounds deeply problematic. It was what led me to check in the forum here to see if there were any recommendations. I couldn’t really find any. If someone has them, please share. --- ## Post 45 by @FlipSid — 2025-01-23T14:23:13Z Going by the Privacy Policy I think G-Data is a solid way to go. I will either leave my Windows 11 Laptop with Defender or get G-Data. Haven’t decided about Internet Security or total security. --- ## Post 46 by @anon39279085 — 2025-01-23T14:44:14Z The true always solution. Common sense and Defender. _If you really need another AV_ use Malwarebytes as a “second thought” scanning AV, Don’t let it run in the background and generally just rely on defender for the real time protection. But use this method alongside VirusTotal for files you can scan within the size limit: > **[VirusTotal](https://www.virustotal.com/gui/)** > > VirusTotal edit: Rather you can just use something like: > **[Free Automated Malware Analysis Service - powered by Falcon Sandbox](https://hybrid-analysis.com/)** > > Submit malware for free analysis with Falcon Sandbox and Hybrid Analysis technology. Hybrid Analysis develops and licenses analysis tools to fight malware. (alongside those if you want) instead of Malwarebytes [But still with Virustotal], this gets the software and optionally can run it on a vm/sandbox isolated from everything else and can check for behavior and malware here. --- ## Post 47 by @Bhaelros — 2025-01-23T15:15:56Z I am using Bitdefender GravityZone Small Business Security. I never liked consumer products, but this one is cheap and business oriented. --- ## Post 48 by @jerm — 2025-01-23T15:37:21Z When you are using Virustotal, you are literally uploading your files to their servers for “researchers” (anyone subscribed to their service) to see and analyze. --- ## Post 49 by @anon29374801 — 2025-01-23T15:42:52Z I am a bit confused as to the issue here? Whatever you upload to virustotal is, in theory, a file you don’t trust and most likely does not originate from you. If it is malicious, you should want others to know about it. Or is it just the risk of human error that concerns you (ie uploading a file you did not intend to upload)? They do off a paid [private scanning service](https://docs.virustotal.com/docs/private-scanning). --- ## Post 50 by @jerm — 2025-01-23T15:45:28Z There are some files that you may want to scan using any of these “Antiviruses” but can’t afford the risk as it might include some sensitive info. --- ## Post 51 by @anon29374801 — 2025-01-23T15:49:00Z Can you provide an example of something that, you might think is malicious but also has sensitive info? I guess I am having trouble imaganing the scenario. --- ## Post 52 by @anon39279085 — 2025-01-23T15:51:38Z Then in that case use defender/Malwarebytes method. However, I don’t get it, you’re not say scanning an internal application say an application made from the programmers at the company or something and outside of documents, it makes sense to include Virtustotal but if you can. Also most of the companies who have established trust with another company don’t have to worry about documents needing to be scanned for malware or other things. I don’t see how scanning a software for malware or a company you have never established with for malware would be a bad thing even if it means there are sensitive info about it. In any case I agree with @Parish255 I also just don’t see a scenario outside of a new company trust establishment and documents you don’t trust but even then. --- ## Post 53 by @Microsoftedgeuser — 2025-01-24T00:57:50Z Maybe a second opinion scanner like emsisoft emergency kit you turn off crash reports and detected malware i think.