# Privacy-respecting and legal alternatives to streaming services **URL:** https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/privacy-respecting-and-legal-alternatives-to-streaming-services/11078 **Category:** General **Created:** 2022-12-17T08:34:57Z **Posts:** 45 ## Post 1 by @anon62252234 — 2022-12-17T08:34:57Z Nowadays, most music and films are only available on streaming services. These are proprietary and almost always have no respect for privacy (not too mention how many of them there are now). In most countries, pirating music and films is against the law. I’m not sure if it would be considered more private anyway (though I’d imagine BTDigg and Soulseek aren’t collecting all your data). This leaves me with a question: what would be the best way to access music and films, while having your privacy respected, and while following the law? --- ## Post 2 by @sbeve — 2022-12-17T08:45:41Z I think the most privacy respecting music streaming service is right now is Apple Music(what a shocker). You can use Apple Music with open source client (or the web version). I recommend watching this Techlore video regarding music streaming services.: [https://youtu.be/wrAdpoGbJd8](https://youtu.be/wrAdpoGbJd8) Not sure about movies tho, since each stream service has their exclusives shows and movies (unlike music streaming services) and kinda have to subscribing to them all. > [@anon62252234](#): > > This leaves me with a question: what would be the best way to access music and films, while having your privacy respected, and while following the law? For music, you got options. idk about movies tho (cinemas also exist btw ..) --- ## Post 3 by @anon30510143 — 2022-12-17T11:26:26Z The best way is really to download a file and play it locally. With music it’s pretty easy, Bandcamp is great, but with Movies and TV it’s a lot tougher since they don’t really let you have the raw mp4 files usually because they really want to force DRM on you. --- ## Post 4 by @anon62252234 — 2022-12-17T12:10:47Z I don’t think Bandcamp has as large a catalogue as something like Apple Music, as much as I’d like to use it. For films, or maybe music as well, would you consider piracy to be privacy-respecting? If it’s legal in your country, like Switzerland: [Internet censorship in Switzerland - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_Switzerland#History) In particular, would an open source torrent search engine like BTDigg, combined with an open source torrent client with encryption enabled, like Fragments on Linux or Transmission on other platforms, be a privacy-respecting option? Or Soulseek, with the open source client developed for it: Nicotine: [GitHub - nicotine-plus/nicotine-plus: Graphical client for the Soulseek peer-to-peer network](https://github.com/nicotine-plus/nicotine-plus)? --- ## Post 5 by @sbeve — 2022-12-17T20:56:37Z > [@anon62252234](#): > > For films, or maybe music as well, would you consider piracy to be privacy-respecting? If it’s legal in your country, like Switzerland **Piracy is theft, plain and simple.** Stop encouraging it. OP specifically mentioned “pirating music and films is against the law”. --- ## Post 6 by @anon62252234 — 2022-12-17T20:57:23Z In Switzerland it isn’t against the law. And I am OP. --- ## Post 7 by @anon73250778 — 2022-12-18T01:41:49Z I’ve stopped pirating games since I had actually income. I havent started the same with music and movies but I is doable. You can always buy DVD/BluRays in cash and rip your own copies and steam them via Jellyfin or Navidrome/Airsonic. The problem is acquiring them. If you deliver physical stuff to your house, you will violate your own privacy. You can have them delivered to a PO box which is sort of okay. The government has your information anyway. > [@404](#): > > **Piracy is theft, plain and simple.** Stop encouraging it. OP specifically mentioned “pirating music and films is against the law”. It isnt so simple as that. [People have been buying ebooks via Kindle and Amazon yanks their legally bought copy out of their collection anyway for some reason.](https://www.cnet.com/culture/amazon-apologizes-for-deleting-kindle-e-books/) How do we correct this? Is it still piracy if people download their legally bought copy off _The Bay_? --- ## Post 8 by @sbeve — 2022-12-18T01:59:48Z > [@anon73250778](#): > > How do we correct this? Is it still piracy if people download their legally bought copy off _The Bay_? Because many people agree that downloading or streaming pirated content is stealing/theft. and also this > The notion that somehow entertainment is not valuable because it’s not as tangible as a car or a piece of clothing is both inaccurate and damaging. Even digital products contain “manufacturing” costs and, in the case of movies and TV shows, it’s the many years, the massive amount of high-tech equipment and the hundreds of skilled professionals it takes to make the content. The exchange of money for works, goods and services is an essential mechanism in market based economies and thus, if people access content via illegal sites, they are plainly and simply stealing. source: [https://thepriceofpiracy.org.au/](https://thepriceofpiracy.org.au/) --- ## Post 9 by @Throwaway — 2022-12-18T02:56:18Z > [@anon62252234](#): > > This leaves me with a question: what would be the best way to access music and films, while having your privacy respected, and while following the law? Can you buy a Spotify gift card using cash, then create an account using a throwaway email address? --- ## Post 10 by @anon62252234 — 2022-12-18T21:28:24Z The legality aspect is an important one, but from a purely privacy-oriented point of view, are sites like the one you mentioned actually more private than streaming services? They are after all closed source and full of ads, except for BTDigg that is. --- ## Post 11 by @anon62252234 — 2022-12-18T21:29:09Z I’m sure I could, but to be honest, I don’t want to support companies that collect your data, even if my use of the service is anonymous. And esoeically not with my money. --- ## Post 12 by @Throwaway — 2022-12-18T22:32:11Z Not totally sure what you’re looking for then. Artists’ music is copyrighted. Streaming companies need to know that people/accounts are paying for the content. Artists deserve to make money from their work. So there needs to be some of transaction. I think the gift card with a dummy email is your best bet. It’s legal, and fair to the artists who need to get paid. --- ## Post 13 by @anon73250778 — 2022-12-19T02:07:28Z I access it via Tor and use the maximum amount of safety that permits site functionality. Public trackers dont really require a login. An alternative would be to use qbittorrent’s own built in torrent search feature but i dont use that particular client. --- ## Post 14 by @anon73250778 — 2022-12-19T02:09:16Z Before Bandcamp was bought by Epic, I rarely buy there. After it was bought by Epic, I really dont want to purchase there anymore --- ## Post 15 by @anon62252234 — 2022-12-19T05:51:28Z I have no problem with a transaction, but I’d like to make one with a company that doesn’t collect user data. --- ## Post 16 by @sbeve — 2022-12-19T06:04:25Z Then using Apple Music is the best option. It is far more private than the competition. You can use an open source client like [Cider](https://cider.sh/) if you don’t want to use Apple’s music player. Also, you don’t need an iDevice to subscribe to Apple Music (and the pricing is competitive with Spotify specially if you are a student). You can purchase “Apple Gift Cards” that can be used with any Apple service, including Apple Music, as throwaway suggested. --- ## Post 17 by @Throwaway — 2022-12-19T14:17:00Z I think they have to collect user data for payments and making sure the artists get paid for the songs you play. You might be better of sticking to FM radio. --- ## Post 18 by @anon62252234 — 2022-12-19T16:19:42Z I’m going to switch to a Linux phone at some point soon, so for me, I think Spotify with [Spot](https://github.com/xou816/spot) would be a better option. Are the privacy implications of using Spotify with Spot any worse than those of using Apple Music with Cider? --- ## Post 19 by @sbeve — 2022-12-20T00:27:43Z The clients don’t make much of a difference for privacy. It comes down to Apple Music vs Spotify. Let just look at their privacy policy ### First, Apple > Apple does not share personal data with third parties for their own marketing purposes. Clear.. straightforward.. One sentence ### Let us look at Spotify > To promote Spotify with our partners. We share certain User Data and Usage Data with these partners where necessary to: > > enable you to participate in Spotify promotions, including trials or other bundled offers > to promote Spotify in media and advertising published on other online services > help us and our partners to measure the effectiveness of Spotify promotions > > Examples of partners include: > > marketing or sponsorship partners > websites and mobile apps who sell us advertising space on their services > device, app and mobile partners who also offer Spotify promotions > > Our partners may also combine the personal data we share with them with other data they collect about you, e.g. your use of their services. We and our partners may use this information to present you with offers, promotions, or other marketing that we think you’ll find relevant. Spotify clearly sells your data to 3rd party. For me there is a clear privacy-friendly candidate. Ultimately, it is up to you and your threat assessment. --- ## Post 20 by @Lumber0147 — 2022-12-20T20:01:33Z > Spotify clearly sells your data to 3rd party. Not selling data to 3d parties is a rather negligible criterion for privacy. Its way more important which kinds and amounts of data are actually collected and how they are used. The statement of not selling data to 3d parties is just a misleading advertising promise. Its not possible to avoid the collection and analytic of data if you use any streaming service that requires an account. You can only avoid linking those accounts with personal details by using gift cards as payment method. AFAIK this works for Spotify, Apple Music and Deezer. imho I would rather completely avoid using such streaming services since you neither own the music nor you have control over the provided content. --- ## Post 21 by @sbeve — 2022-12-21T08:20:02Z > [@Lumber0147](#): > > Not selling data to 3d parties is a rather negligible criterion for privacy. I am reading this correctly? > [@Lumber0147](#): > > Its way more important which kinds and amounts of data are actually collected and how they are used. Yea, even in this case Apple Music collects far fewer data than any other streaming services as techlore points out. > [@Lumber0147](#): > > The statement of not selling data to 3d parties is just a misleading advertising promise. Privacy policy is a legal document not an “advertising” document. --- ## Post 22 by @Lumber0147 — 2022-12-21T13:12:40Z > I am reading this correctly? I hope so, theres not much room for misunderstandings, I think. > Yea, even in this case Apple Music collects far fewer data than any other streaming services as techlore points out That’s a way better argument for using it. **Unfortunally Apple Music comes with a very insidious practice, because it deletes your original local song files and replaces them with DRM’d versions, so imho not recommendable for the average person.** > **[Apple Music deletes your original songs and replaces them with DRM'd versions](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34053094)** > > 379 points — > 170 comments — > josephcsible — > 3:22 PM - 19 Dec 2022 I dont know if its possible to use multiple Apple IDs with one device, but if not I would see there an issue, because the collected data of Apple Music can be linked with other data from your ID, oc only for the case you use it on an Apple device. With spotify or deezer you can just use any burner email adress and pay with gift cards. Of course thats not an issue if you can just use an alt account for Apple Music and maybe use a 3d party app so it doesnt replace your local files.but thats a really treacherous practice anyway. Thus being said I actually struggle to find lesser know artists on any of the aforementioned streaming services, some of them also get removed for no recognizable reason. --- ## Post 23 by @dumpster — 2022-12-22T18:04:44Z FAAMG never sells your data. They don’t need to “sell” your data in order to share it across their various products. Instead, via their dominant position, they sell access to you (ads). Does this make their products better than rival products that don’t have such nice sounding privacy policies? I’m not so sure. As a matter of fact, you might exercise better control over your data from a company that sells your data, because my understanding is citizens of California can request\* that companies they patronize not sell their data. Meanwhile, big companies that do not sell your data, such as FAAMG, can’t have any restrictions imposed on their (internal) data transmission by the customer. \*the company has to comply --- ## Post 24 by @dumpster — 2022-12-22T20:05:51Z There’s a good variety of options surveyed in that video. Personally I think Newpipe is the best option. Actually, even better would be using Invidious, that way you’re never even connecting to Google servers. I’m surprised Techlore didn’t include it. --- ## Post 25 by @dumpster — 2022-12-22T20:17:01Z You don’t have to go so low tech. As long as you’re okay with not directly DJ’ing, listening to free “radio” streams (behind a VPN) is a very privacy friendly option. Pretty much all large terrestrial radio stations have online streams available. I don’t know the privacy implications of listening via the Javascript player most terrestrial and internet radio stations feature on their websites, but using your own (privacy-friendly) media player provides no identifying information (other than public-facing IP address and listen times). --- ## Post 26 by @Anvil — 2022-12-23T00:55:32Z I buy music I like in high resolution from HDTracks or on vinyl/CD, and play it locally or compress and stream it to my devices using the Nextcloud Music app. Nuclear JS (desktop) and ViMusic (android) let you listen to YouTube music for free. --- ## Post 27 by @Lumber0147 — 2022-12-23T14:11:50Z I buy music from bandcamp (belongs to Epic since a while unfortunally) and manage and play it with AIMP (not FOSS) on desktop and on my phone with VLC. For streaming I use Individous and Newpipe. --- ## Post 31 by @sbeve — 2023-01-04T23:48:16Z > [@Lumber0147](#): > > Unfortunally Apple Music comes with a very insidious practice, because it deletes your original local song files and replaces them with DRM’d versions, so imho not recommendable for the average person. This is not from a valid source and nothing to do with privacy aspect of the service. and according to HN > The reddit thread title is misleading. > > Apple didn’t “replace” the OPs files, the OP downloaded their music library to a new device, using Apple Music’s sync feature. This can be easily disabled by turning off “sync”. > [@dumpster](#): > > FAAMG never sells your data. They don’t need to “sell” your data in order to share it across their various products. Instead, via their dominant position, they sell access to you (ads). Does this make their products better than rival products that don’t have such nice sounding privacy policies? I’m not so sure. According to mozzilla, > On the privacy front, yes, Apple is generally better than other Big Tech companies (cough, Meta, cough cough, Amazon, cough Samsung), when it comes to privacy. They aren’t perfect, of course, but they do seem to do a better job at collecting less data because they aren’t trying to sell as many ads as Google and Facebook ([yet](https://www.wired.com/story/apple-is-an-ad-company-now/), at least). > > Apple says they can collect things like name, email address, age, location, device information, contact information, and more. The good news is, Apple says they treat all this information as personal information. So, things like device ID and the like are treated as securely as your name and age. That’s good. And Apple says they don’t share or sell your data, which is also good. They do say they can share your data with some third parties such as business partners, service providers, and others as you give your permission. [source](https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/apple-homepod-mini/) So, Apple is known for having a pretty strong security and privacy track record, at least compared to many of the other Big Tech companies. > [@dumpster](#): > > There’s a good variety of options surveyed in that video. Personally I think Newpipe is the best option. It doesn’t offer the ux of a music player or the benefits of a streaming based solution. --- ## Post 32 by @Nostradamus — 2023-01-06T03:12:44Z So, you could buy your media physically, rip it and set up a Jellybin server for it. Music CDs are actually really cheap today on eBay and so are movie/show if you don’t mind waiting for things to not be that new. I _think_ you could pay with gift/prepaid cards and use PO Box to hide your address id within US. Your Jellybin server can be any computer you have around, the only difficult part to set up of all this on a technical level, could be streaming away from home. But you could get away with just saving what you watch offline on your mobile device. --- ## Post 33 by @Lumber0147 — 2023-01-06T06:27:24Z > This is not from a valid source and nothing to do with privacy aspect of the service. > and according to HN There are multiple sources saying that, I also read numerous complaints on reddit about that issue. Please provide a source which proves that this is not true. It’s a general insidious practice which make that service not recommandable at all so it definitely belongs here. Just because it isn’t directly privacy related it doesn’t mean it’s not significantly impactful on the general usage for the average user. --- ## Post 34 by @sbeve — 2023-01-06T07:46:02Z > [@Lumber0147](#): > > There are multiple sources saying that, I also read numerous complaints on reddit about that issue. Please provide a source which proves that this is not true. This is not related to Apple Music (service). Apple Music (service) is a subscription based music streaming service. Playing local music is part of Apple Music (app). You can get local music from various sources to your music library at Apple Music (app) (including Apple Music (service)). i.e ![image](//forum-uploads.privacyguidesusercontent.com/original/1X/60ea9ac4ecbe50f204cad527fb38cea15443cc29.png) source: [https://support.apple.com/en-au/guide/music/mus0f01bdce4/mac](https://support.apple.com/en-au/guide/music/mus0f01bdce4/mac) (hope this make sense. In this topic we are focusing on Apple Music (service)) Reddit contains anecdotal evidence and accuracy of this information is questionable. According to top comment > it seems it download a version with DRM if you set it to download in Lossless format, but my songs weren’t originally lossless, and if I set it to download the AAC version the file is DRM free and > The reddit thread title is misleading. > Apple didn’t “replace” the OPs files, the OP downloaded their music library to a new device, using Apple Music’s sync feature. (I can’t link to HN comments) So Apple Music (app) might not have this issue. I can’t verify this as I don’t have any local music. > [@Lumber0147](#): > > Just because it isn’t directly privacy related it doesn’t mean it’s not significantly impactful on the general usage for the average user. You can always use a difference music client like [cider](https://cider.sh/) if Apple Music (app) is not suitable or use a different application to handle local music. --- ## Post 35 by @Lumber0147 — 2023-01-06T20:37:23Z > This is not related to Apple Music (service). Its definitely related because the issue is caused by Apple’s official client. > So Apple Music (app) might not have this issue. I can’t verify this as I don’t have any local music. Not really since there are numerous complaints about that issue where people also specifically mentioned that they synced their music files with their local ones and they got replaced. > You can always use a difference music client like [cider](https://cider.sh/) if Apple Music (app) is not suitable or use a different application to handle local music. Yeah sure, but you can’t simply recommend such a service without explicitely highlighting this issue and also due to this practice that service isn’t trustworthy at all. The average guy won’t look after alternative clients and when then it might be to late. --- ## Post 36 by @sbeve — 2023-01-06T21:30:48Z > [@Lumber0147](#): > > Not really since there are numerous complaints about that issue where people also specifically mentioned that they synced their music files with their local ones, and they got replaced. As I stated before, It got a very easy fix, and it doesn’t “replace” local files. > If you turn off Sync Library in the Apple Music settings then plug into iTunes and sync there again then all that data will come back. > > Sync library is basically asking them to do exactly what you described so it is more available across all devices without having to use iTunes > > If you end your subscription then it does delete that data that was being streamed like created playlists which is main complaint of missing music > > They don’t revoke your rights to those songs or make you buy them again. You just need to sync it to iTunes again. Everyone gets confused on that process > > Source: used to work for Apple Support source: [https://www.reddit.com/r/YouShouldKnow/comments/zl8ko3/comment/j05ojxr/](https://www.reddit.com/r/YouShouldKnow/comments/zl8ko3/comment/j05ojxr/) > [@Lumber0147](#): > > Yeah sure, but you can’t simply recommend such a service without explicitely highlighting this issue and also due to this practice that service isn’t trustworthy at all. When you look at the alternative, Apple Music (service) is a much for private option. Spotify clearly sells your data to third party (such as Facebook, Google). Other services doesn’t have a strong Privacy Policy either. Also, Deezer had [data breach recently](https://restoreprivacy.com/music-service-deezer-data-breach/). > [@Lumber0147](#): > > The average guy won’t look after alternative clients and when then it might be too late. doubt average guy even have local music. So it won’t matter. Also, this is a recommendation for OP, not average guy. As pointed out by _techlore_ Apple Music is the _only_ privacy-friendly subscription based music streaming service. --- ## Post 37 by @Lumber0147 — 2023-01-07T14:10:35Z > They don’t revoke your rights to those songs or make you buy them again. You just need to sync it to iTunes again. Everyone gets confused on that process That is not what was critizised and complained about. The issue is that Apple Music replaces the local files with its own DRM versions. Often these versions where different and worse than the original files. Your source doesn’t adress the real problem. > When you look at the alternative Whataboutism. Ive never said other streaming services are better, thats why I advocated for staying away from streaming in general. Ive also said that using any of these streaming services (including Apple Music) anonymously with gift cards so you dont expose any personal information is probably the second best option --- ## Post 39 by @anon62252234 — 2023-01-07T16:05:05Z I’m not sure future discussion on this issue would be beneficial. I’m not planning on changing what I use to listen to music right now, so this is more of a hypothetical. With that being said, if I were to, I’d probably switch to Apple Music, as it seems to be the most private option available. If for some reason a native client were a requirement however, I would probably switch to Spotify and use it with Spot, on my Linux devices. Thank you to everyone who has commented for your input! Please move further debates or discussions elsewhere, if possible. --- ## Post 40 by @sbeve — 2023-01-07T21:25:15Z One more thing… This [research](https://www.commonsensemedia.org/sites/default/files/research/report/privacy_of_streaming_apps_and_devices-final.pdf) by nonprofit organisation Common Sense Media also have a section on subscription-based media streaming service. This includes some things to lookout for in each streaming service. tldr ![image](//forum-uploads.privacyguidesusercontent.com/original/1X/33d8b64c5e3a15282aa114dd565f63f459def9e6.png) ![image](//forum-uploads.privacyguidesusercontent.com/original/1X/1748d8aa62337ba160578c293f9a6c40217767b7.png) --- ## Post 41 by @donotspamplz — 2023-01-09T02:50:38Z Bandcamp has an ongoing event the first Friday of each month where 100% of the sale money goes to the musical artist, so I highly recommend that as a great means to support your favorite musicians. --- ## Post 42 by @Lumber0147 — 2023-01-09T13:32:47Z Bandcamp is great, it has all the lesser know artists you wont find on the big streaming services. Unfortunally it got sold to Epic recently. --- ## Post 43 by @anon73250778 — 2023-01-10T01:53:33Z I would have been ok with this but Tencent has significant shareholder interest in Epic. You all complain about privacy in the US but elsewhere could be so much worse --- ## Post 44 by @anon30510143 — 2023-01-10T04:55:58Z Well the point is you can download the song and play it offline with no DRM, no matter who owns the company. --- ## Post 45 by @anon73250778 — 2023-01-10T22:04:28Z Yes but if they process your data when tou buy songs, does Tencent get a copy too?