My city is currently rolling out smart water, gas, and electricity meters, and my apartment building is considering the switch. For now, it’s not mandatory, but the decision is not made on an individual basis.
All the building residents have to vote on it. Either every one will get one, or none of us will, and I fear that I will not be able to persuade my fellow neighbors on this issue.
Does anybody have any experience with smart meter rollouts in your town and pushing against them?
I’ve done a little bit of research, and so far I have seen various privacy advocates in the US, UK, and Australia complain about it. I’ve seen regular people from those countries do the same thing.
In the UK, it was first announced as optional, but it quickly became clear that it’s now mandatory.
What kind of questions should I ask the company that wants to replace our meters?
How should I persuade my neighbors to vote against it?
I have found various privacy arguments, but I suspect they won’t sway my neighbors because I don’t know anybody IRL who cares about privacy issues. If it means their water and electricity bills will be much lower (which I’m not convinced of), I don’t think their minds can be changed.
Even if that were true, I doubt the savings will be significant, and I personally suspect that it will be only for the first few months or at best the first year, but after that it will be as high as it currently is.
I also don’t like the fact that if we sign with the smart meter company, our contract is for 10 years, which is INSANE.
Please help.
I have read @em 's article on Selling Surveillance as Convenience, and I’m figuring out the steps that I can take, but it all comes down to persuading my neighbors it’s a bad idea. The vote will take place in presence of the smart meter company representatives.
I’m not going to say if I’m in the EU or not, but I can confirm that in my region there is a data protection authority, as well as a data protection law and regulation.
That being said, it seems like you didn’t actually read my post, because you seem to not have understood it. I live in an apartment building. The decision to adopt smart meters or not is collective. It’s not individual. Meaning that if all my neighbors want to get smart meters and I don’t, I will be forced to get a smart meter.
At this point, it’s not about stopping the government and utility companies from installing smart meters in my apartment, as it is not mandatory by law. Though I suspect that may not be the case in the coming years. No, right now I gotta convince my neighbors that it’s a terrible idea.
In many countries and in cites across the world, smart meters have been adopted. For some countries, it started as early as he 2010s. At first, some countries like the US and UK were told that it would not be mandatory, but then energy companies threatened to cut the power if residents didn’t switch to a smart meter. Some did have the hot water and electricity cut off. There are a lot of privacy and security issues.
I need to cross-examine the smart meter company during their presentation, so that everyone realizes it’s a bad idea. That’s what I need help with. Asking the right questions to the company, but also using the right arguments to persuade my neighbors it’s a terrible idea. They are just regularly people, excited about new technology, and not really into privacy issue.
I read your post but responded way to briefly and without detail. My idea was that, as it is not mandatory to install these meters, and they are presumably not in the supply contracts with the utility company, the legitimate interest of the company is the only legal basis for collecting any information which may be considered personal data.
Relying on LI has several implications, one of which is the right to opt out of the personal data collection.
Obligatory “not legal advice”, but I am a legal professional and in a country which is also rolling out these smart meters currently, so the topic is of high interest to me.
As for your neighbours, considering they are not concerned with privacy, you could try to explain the consequences a violation of their privacy would have. The example of burglars being able to know when someone is away from home is an excellent one. A less extreme one is a door-to-door salesman coming to your door cause he knows you are at home watching TV, and pestering you to buy his vacuum cleaner. You can give them other such examples, especially if relevant to their specific case (i.e. a neighbour who is into crypto might be worried that his high consumption will lead to a tax audit).
You can show them that the problem is not that someone has the data, but that they may lose it or misuse it to your neighbours detriment.
Thank you for sharing this. I am very curious about what people in the PG community think about smart meters. Statistically, it is likely that quite a few people here already have them, and I wonder if they ever chose to have it, if so, why, and if not, did they ever question the privacy implication?
What are your thoughts on smart meters? Is your city forcing you to have them or can you opt out?
Traditional meters take readings of your usage only once a month. On the flip side, a smart meter takes readings every day. In fact, they can take readings every hour, every half hour, every 15 minutes, and even every 5 minutes. They collect a crap ton of data that from which utility companies can infe behavioral patterns.
They can ascertain your routine and know when you are home and when you are not. They can also know what appliances you use and at what time. There’s also the risk of your data being shared with third parties, which can include businesses, law enforcement, and apparently debt collectors in the case of Australia.
Also this:
WIKIPEDIA:Used as evidence in a court case in Austin, Texas, police agencies secretly collected smart meter power usage data from thousands of residences to determine which used more power than “typical” to identify marijuana growing operations (source: Austin Chronicle).
I don’t want my neighbors to be deceived by lies like this.
What questions do you think I should ask the smart meter company?
Some of them I intend and hope to have the time to ask are:
1) Who owns the data that you collect about your users? 2) Do you share that data with third parties (e.g.: other companies or government) 3) What do you do with our data? Do you exploit it? 4) At what intervals does your smart reader take readings, and can that be changed? 5) Can you remotely control how your users access to hot water and electricity?
If you have any other suggestions, please share. Because I fear that I may not have enough time to speak, I need to assume I’ll only get the chance to ask one or two questions, and hence, I want gotcha questions.
Sadly, it is the EU as a whole which is forcing citizens to have them by 2027 under the green deal package. Electricity meters have been remote since awhile back where I live, but the heating and water meters are next. So far public pushback has been focused mainly on the cost of replacement rather than anything else. Currently, it is opt-in on an individual basis, but whole buildings can vote to install smart heating/water meters.
This is my main issue with it - they realistically need to collect data once a day at most. Even if the utility company states as much however, tenants have no real way of knowing how often data is being broadcast. This would allow for dynamic charging throughout the day and even price manipulation if legal in your country. If I were your neighbour, this would concern me the most - it allows the power company to bill you selectively when the price is highest, as opposed as whatever the price is at the end of the month when the meter is usually read.
If you live in a country where the GDPR or similar legislation applies, the company should be providing the answers to questions 1-3 before offering to install the smart meters.
The other two question are on point, I think, and I’d add something about the way they would be billing you - can they change prices, or selectively bill the customer when the floating price is at it’s highest. Anything that can make them admit to being able to manipulate either the access to energy/heat/water or their price as a result of the smart meters would be great, especially if they are on record. Keep in mind that the representative would likely be trying to dodge such questions.
Exactly. Not just the power company, the government can also exploit that data if they have access to it. In some countries like the Netherlands, water, electricity and gas networks are all publicly owned. Although I could be wrong, I suspect the dynamic pricing is based on aggregate data, not an individual apartment.
Meaning that even if it is possible to set my meter to monthly or daily readings (I hope!), it won’t matter if all my neighbors’ meters are set to hourly readings. Dynamic pricing would likely be based on our collective usage as a building, which still sucks.
It’s also possible that it’s not based on the building’s usage, but the entire neighborhood or town if they have smart meters. So even if all the residents in my building set their meters to monthly readings, we’re still screwed if that’s not the case for the rest of the neighborhood.
This is an aspect of privacy that most people don’t appreciate. It’s not just an individual issue. It’s a collective issue. If I share my DNA with 23andMe, I infringe the privacy of my parents, my siblings, cousins, grandparents, etc…because we all share DNA.
DATA PROTECTION REGULATION
I agree 1000%.
If they fail to bring it up first, it will definitely be a red flag.
PUBLIC VS PRIVATE
The price is mostly based on the government, but since the smart meter company has to make a profit, they have some margin. Also, if they share our data with the government, which they in turn exploit to charge us more based on what that data reveals about our usage, that is also a problem.
CONTROL
I agree. If they admit that, I hope it persuades my neighbors. Because some people are not swayed by the idea that a company or service has the power to do something, if they say they are not doing it. They will just take their word for it.
This is precisely why so many people are devoted to Telegram, even though it’s not end-to-end encrypted by default. They don’t believe Telegram shares user data with third parties (they do!) and are not bothered by the sheer fact that Telegram has the power to do it.
STAYING ALERT
Absolutely. I definitely don’t want them to pull deceptive stunts like the video I shared earlier where the energy company says their smart meters can’t see or hear you, nor do they know your name and address. It’s technicaly true but obfuscates the fact that with data they collect the can infer a lot about a household’s routine.
CYBERSECURITY & SAFETY
I don’t know if it’s a convincing argument, but I noticed that the smart meter company that wants to service our building has an app and website for users to manage their accounts. I personally don’t want to use an app, but that is besides the point. The app/website doesn’t seem to have 2FA as an option.
If someone hacks your account, they can know when you’re not home. If they do support 2FA, I doubt they support 2FA via authentication app or U2F. I don’t want to have to share my number with them. Also, if there are multiple residents in a home, 2FA via SMS is not practical.
Moreover, I suspect they don’t support long passwords (50 characters), which is the primary factor in determining the strength of a password. But I doubt my neighbors would care about that too.
Thank you very much for this @em! I have found and saved various articles about smart meters from the EFF and Privacy International, but for some reason, I never stumbled upon this one, so THANK YOU!
EDIT: I just realized why I didn’t find this article in my research. It was published just 2 days ago.
Ars Technica reported on it, too:
Yeah, I’m learning a lot about the privacy risks of smart meters. I’m currently exchanging with the utility company that wants to service my area, and their answers to my privacy questions are not satisfying.
They say they don’t share data and that no one has access to our user data except the users and them, but I am suspicious about third parties. I specifically asked about third parties including companies they may work with or technologies they use to render their service, and to my surprise they said no. I’m skeptical that they don’t use any third party cloud service or even tools like Microsoft Office 365 to create their bills and infographics about user consumption.
Even if everything they say is true, the idea that they could be legally compelled by the government to share my data is worrisome. They also don’t have 2FA for user accounts on their websites and app, which means that if any residents get their credentials stolen, bad actors can study their lifestyle patterns and learn when they are not home.
All that being said, I fear that the privacy and security concerns will not move my neighbors. I will probably have to rely on other arguments. I just hope I can prevent this potential privacy nightmare.
Those are all excellent questions to ask. Another thing that could help (depending on your location) is examining the company’s privacy policy.
If you think it isn’t an accurate description of their practices, that information is missing, or that some practices aren’t compliant with your local privacy laws, you might want to report this to the data protection authority for your jurisdiction. They might be able to help.
TL;DR: Last week, my building voted against adopting smart meters, but it was not because of privacy. They just didn’t like the specific utility company that wanted our business. Another company will make a proposal, and we will have to decide again soon.
WHAT I LEARNED:
Although this is a temporary victory, I fear I played no role in it, as none of my neighbors were moved by the privacy issues I raised. They primarily care about convenience and paying less for water, gas, and electricity, which is understandable.
Communication Skills Matter
One of the reasons I believe I failed is because I’m not a compelling communicator. I’ve come to realize that that being a great communicator plays a huge role in your ability to influence people. Of course, it’s something I have always known, but what I mean is, it’s not enough to be clear.
Some of the communicators I admire the most are masters at commanding language. They’re extremely eloquent. They have a rich vocabulary and know the right words to use to have the strongest impact. That is not me, and I need to work on it.
So does personality
Another factor that plays a role is personality. If people don’t like you or feel indifferent towards you, it becomes harder to persuade them. I don’t believe any of my neighbors dislike me, but I still think I gotta work on my likeability.
I am very doubtful that I will be able to sway the vote when it comes up again, but I will try my best.
QUESTION:|
I am surprised at how few people commented on this post, in the sense that I didn’t expect to be the first person to bring up smart meters on this forum.
1) Do most of you even know if you currently have a smart meter? 2) Is it a lost/unwinnable battle?
If you are in the EU, be careful about relying too much on US-specific talking points. Saying company could go rogue and sell data might not be convincing because it would be illegal for them to do so.
However, I would want to find other arguments. Price to install them being one. Same for the price and difficulty of replacing a broken meter.
Also, I would insist that it will make everyone look and worry about electricity price, which isn’t very convenient and not good for mental health.
And if people don’t check electricity prices to optimize, then you might end up with a higher bill.
