# Ente (Photo Management) **URL:** https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/ente-photo-management/11763 **Category:** Tool Suggestions **Tags:** completed **Created:** 2023-02-14T14:50:00Z **Posts:** 49 ## Post 1 by @jonah — 2023-02-14T14:50:00Z Continuing a discussion at: > **[ente - e2ee alternative to Google/Apple Photos · privacyguides · Discussion #194](https://github.com/orgs/privacyguides/discussions/194#discussioncomment-4918253)** > > Hey team, Founder of ente here. 👋 ente is an end-to-end encrypted alternative to Google / Apple Photos, that is equally easy to use. We launched on HackerNews and r/degoogle a few months ago and re... > **[Ente - Private cloud storage for your photos and videos](https://ente.io/)** > > Ente Photos is the private, secure, end-to-end encrypted photo storage app. Cross-platform, open source, and self-hostable. Get started with 10GB free. --- ## Post 2 by @jonah — 2023-02-14T15:01:38Z Right now I believe we are waiting on a report from [vishnukvmd](https://github.com/orgs/privacyguides/discussions/194#discussioncomment-4919192): > [@vishnukvmd](#): > > […] Our documents on [architecture](https://ente.io/architecture) and [reliability](https://ente.io/reliability) were reviewed by friends and acquaintances. Penetration tests were performed in the past by [@FallibleInc](https://github.com/FallibleInc). If you could please share an example for a letter of attestation, I will reach out to them and request for one. > [@dngray](#): > > Sure, a good example of that would be the ones produced [by Securitum](https://proton.me/blog/security-audit-all-proton-apps). > > They mention key things about the the audit such as: > > - Who completed the audit with a brief description of their background/experience/ > - When it was audited > - Scope, (software, network, infrastructure etc) > - The version audited, and commit id > - How long it took > - How many vulnerabilities and the severity (according to CVSS) of them, there’s a rather [neat calculator](https://nvd.nist.gov/vuln-metrics/cvss) there > - If any recommendations were made, and if so, how many. --- ## Post 3 by @faxe — 2023-03-22T15:16:50Z there is an update on the audit situation: [Ente successfully completes a security audit](https://ente.io/blog/cryptography-audit/) --- ## Post 4 by @vishnukvmd — 2023-03-23T03:34:33Z Thank you faxe! Hey @jonah, @dngray! Sorry about the delay, we were waiting for the results from our latest audit. The audit that Fallible had previously performed was a pen test, while this one (performed by Cure53 and Symbolic Software) is a cryptography review + source code audit, which provides a stronger guarantee of our security and privacy posture. Please find more details here: [Ente successfully completes a security audit](https://ente.io/blog/cryptography-audit). If you have any follow up questions, please let me know. Thanks! :slight_smile: --- ## Post 5 by @jonah — 2023-03-23T14:40:39Z Yes I have some follow-up questions for you: Did you ever end up getting a letter of attestation or public report from Fallible, just out of curiosity? Are you able to determine whether any **current** users (and/or how many) are affected by `ENT-01-001` (i.e. have weak passwords)? `ENT-01-002` is an interesting problem, I think that we would have to include a warning about it on the site because encryption strength is directly tied to password strength, so changing a weak password to a strong password would not increase encryption strength. This is particularly a problem for anyone that might be affected by `ENT-01-001` of course. Am I correct in thinking that the only solution in this case would be to create a new ente account and re-upload? What was Symbolic Software’s role in this? Did they have a separate report? * * * Overall though, I think ente is coming out of this looking quite good! @dngray you have been testing ente and liked it, right? I’m going to mark this as approved and we can start working on adding it to the site (I am thinking a new photo management providers page), but I’ll also wait for @vishnukvmd’s responses here to determine how exactly we’ll word the listing :slight_smile: --- ## Post 6 by @vishnukvmd — 2023-03-23T15:27:04Z Hey! > report from Fallible Requesting an attestation for a stale pentest required us to have lengthy conversations, which we felt was unnecessary since we had the Cure53 audit lined up. So the truth is, we didn’t try :slight_smile: That said, we have a good working relationship with Fallible, so if you think an attestation is necessary, we should be able to figure something out. > ENT-01-001 No, we have no information about user passwords. > ENT-01-002 The entropy of your encryption keys is unrelated to the strength of your password. When the blog post mentioned that “strength of our encryption depends on your password”, what we meant was that it is easy to brute-force a weak password. You can increase your account’s security by switching to a stronger password. More details on how this works is documented [here](https://ente.io/architecture/#key-encryption). Sorry about the confusion, and thanks for pointing this out, we will figure out a way to phrase this better. > Symbolic Software’s role Cure53 had consulted Dr. Nadim Kobeissi, who runs Symbolic Software to lead this audit. The final document was prepared by both parties, and shared with us under the Cure53 banner. Dr. Nadim has publicly disclosed Symbolic Software’s participation [here](https://twitter.com/kaepora/status/1636672037249851393). --- ## Post 7 by @jonah — 2023-03-23T16:42:08Z No worries, it would just be nice to know what Fallible’s conclusion was at that time. I did see Dr. Nadim’s tweet, I just wasn’t sure if that final document was the result of both parties’ work because Symbolic/Nadim was not mentioned in the PDF, so thank you for the clarification. > [@vishnukvmd](#): > > > ENT-01-002 > > The entropy of your encryption keys is unrelated to the strength of your password. Am I misunderstanding the `ENT-01-001` issue? From the audit report: > Passwords are used to derive the root key material for **all** ente symmetric encryption keys, and thus, their strength is integral to the confidentiality and integrity guarantees provided by the application’s end-to-end encryption design. That sentence is what led me to my assumption. I do think that your architecture page does explain it better, so let me make sure I understand this right: When you register, the client generates a `masterKey` which **is not** related to the strength of your password. It also generates a `keyEncryptionKey` which **is** related to the strength of your password. When you change your password, the `keyEncryptionKey` is updated (improving the encryption there) but the `masterKey` is not updated (this is `ENT-01-002` as I understand it). However, because the `masterKey` is already strong and unrelated to your password strength, this is not really a big deal. Does that sound correct? --- ## Post 8 by @jonah — 2023-03-23T17:02:51Z I still feel like I was right the first time actually, let me explain… The `encryptedMasterKey` is secured with the `keyEncryptionKey`. Thus, if you had a weak password (`ENT-01-001`), you could brute force the `keyEncryptionKey` to unlock the `encryptedMasterKey` and obtain the `masterKey`. If you later change your password from a weak password to a strong password, the old `encryptedMasterKey` is not invalidated, because the resulting `masterKey` is the same (`ENT-01-002`). Therefore, if an attacker obtained your weak `encryptedMasterKey` at some point, your `masterKey` could still be vulnerable even after a password change. That attacker could hypothetically be you, maybe you store old `encryptedMasterKey`s on your server, or it could be anyone with access to the user’s email account thanks to `ENT-01-003`. Let me know if I am still confused about something. I don’t think I see this as a very realistic attack, I just want to make sure I am interpreting Cure53’s report correctly. --- ## Post 9 by @vishnukvmd — 2023-03-23T17:12:47Z Yes, that’s correct, we only derive the `keyEncryptionKey` from the password, and not **all** keys. Yes, we also don’t see this as a realistic attack. --- ## Post 10 by @jonah — 2023-03-23T17:24:55Z In a nutshell you could say that if someone’s `encryptedMasterKey` and the corresponding password are both compromised, their current encryption could be vulnerable even after a password change. Okay, thanks! Sounds good, I just wanted to make sure I had a solid understanding of your architecture. --- ## Post 11 by @jonah — 2023-03-23T17:33:20Z > > > **Important conflict of interest update, see:** https://github.com/privacyguides…/privacyguides.org/pull/2102#issuecomment-1747401016 > > > - [x] I have disclosed any relevant conflicts of interest in my post. > - [x] I agree to grant Privacy Guides a perpetual, worldwide, non-exclusive, transferable, royalty-free, irrevocable license with the right to sublicense such rights through multiple tiers of sublicensees, to reproduce, modify, display, perform, relicense, and distribute my contribution as part of this project. > - [x] I am the sole author of this work. > - [x] I agree to the [Community Code of Conduct](https://www.privacyguides.org/en/code_of_conduct/). --- ## Post 12 by @ua741 — 2023-04-11T07:24:16Z Hello, We were wondering if we can help in any way to unblock the addition of ente. Would it make sense to not wait for the review of other products? We are concerned that reviews of other products might unnecessarily delay the listing. ~ Neeraj (ente) --- ## Post 13 by @jonah — 2023-04-12T04:06:33Z Can you send a 128x128 square SVG logo for both dark and light mode? The other projects don’t have much to do with it, this is just a lower priority change for me at the moment with everything else going on. --- ## Post 15 by @ua741 — 2023-04-12T10:33:38Z I have attached the logo in the [Github PR.](https://github.com/privacyguides/privacyguides.org/pull/2102#issuecomment-1505027847) PS: accidentally replied from the alt account earlier. --- ## Post 16 by @vishnukvmd — 2023-05-10T14:34:45Z > [@jonah](#): > > Did you ever end up getting a letter of attestation or public report from Fallible, just out of curiosity? Hey, here’s the latest audit report from Fallible: [ente.io/reports/Fallible-Audit-Report-19-04-2023.pdf](https://ente.io/reports/Fallible-Audit-Report-19-04-2023.pdf) Thanks for creating the PR, if there’s anything we can do to push things forward, please let us know :folded_hands: --- ## Post 17 by @vishnukvmd — 2023-06-18T09:35:31Z Hey @jonah, folks from our community have been asking about the PG listing. If there’s anything we can do to get the PR merged, please let us know. To recap, here is our [architecture](https://ente.io/architecture), [source code](https://github.com/ente-io), and [results from our cryptography audit](https://ente.io/blog/cryptography-audit/). We would be grateful if you could list us. --- ## Post 18 by @bashrc — 2023-06-18T10:08:49Z Ente user that brought it up internally here - great service and looking forward to seeing it listed. --- ## Post 19 by @ghostedpegasus — 2023-06-20T20:40:48Z [They’re now a US company](https://ente.io/blog/reflections-on-trusting-trust/), which means they’re now subject to the [CLOUD Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CLOUD_Act). As a reminder: > The CLOUD Act primarily amends the Stored Communications Act (SCA) of 1986 to allow federal law enforcement to compel U.S.-based technology companies via warrant or subpoena to provide requested data stored on servers regardless of whether the data are stored in the U.S. or on foreign soil. --- ## Post 20 by @xe3 — 2023-06-20T21:19:35Z > which means they are now subject to the CLOUD Act I don’t have personal experience with Ente but they are described as _“ente is an end-to-end encrypted alternative to Google / Apple Photos, that is equally easy to use.”_ Things like the “CLOUD Act” are just what E2E encryption is designed to solve, right? Assuming your data is encrypted on your device with keys that don’t leave your device, the impact of some 3rd party having access to the Ente servers that store your data is limited (whether that be Law Enforcement, Hackers, or Ente employees themselves). --- ## Post 21 by @sierra6 — 2023-06-20T21:30:19Z Does this mean that all of these PG recommendations based in the US are also subject to the CLOUD Act? Brave Firefox Safari > **[Virtual Cards That Protect Your Payments | Online Payment Security](https://www.privacy.com/)** > > Protect your payment security. Shield your financial information and protect against credit and debit card fraud with secure, randomly-generated virtual card numbers. MySudo Thunderbird Apple Mail Canary Mail K-9 Mail Bitwarden Signal Are there any concerns we should have about these products? --- ## Post 22 by @ghostedpegasus — 2023-06-20T21:43:04Z Only the ones that store data on their servers. Apps that only store data locally like Thunderbird, Apple Mail (not iCloud, but the mail client) and K-9 are not. --- ## Post 23 by @anon74790864 — 2023-06-28T15:40:05Z I also really recommend this service --- ## Post 24 by @purplecactus — 2023-06-30T02:01:54Z starting using it after following the discussion + seeing it’s been approved. Pretty much exactly what i was looking for, and well priced. handled my massive upload well too. --- ## Post 25 by @landordragen — 2023-07-03T11:08:42Z Been using Ente for the last two months. Could have gone for Stingle Photos but some minor features on Ente made me stay. Specifically this option: [It allows me to delete unwanted photos from Ente alone, from device alone or from both. It helps keeping it tidy.](https://www.figma.com/file/SYtMyLBs5SAOkTbfMMzhqt/ente-Visual-Design?node-id=8122%3A60155&t=HnFyGDXPh1q1K7HO-1) --- ## Post 26 by @anon74790864 — 2023-07-03T11:46:12Z IMO Ente’s UI is cleaner, they also update their application more and constantly work on new features. --- ## Post 27 by @purplecactus — 2023-07-05T18:52:27Z @vishnukvmd I appreciate the app lock feature. I have a request though–can an app-specific PIN be available rather than the device PIN? and/or have an option for biometrics only? --- ## Post 28 by @anon74790864 — 2023-07-05T20:24:34Z @purplecactus That isn’t possible yet, but Vishnu has a issue open for that. [Independent lockscreen · Issue #783 · ente-io/ente · GitHub](https://github.com/ente-io/photos-app/issues/1240) --- ## Post 29 by @purplecactus — 2023-07-05T22:03:29Z okay, cool. ty. --- ## Post 30 by @ch3k — 2023-07-31T17:06:42Z [https://ente.io/](https://ente.io/) is a great alternative to google photos without having to sacrifice privacy. Its end to end encrypted, [has recently been audited by cure53](https://ente.io/blog/cryptography-audit/), cross platform with a web, mobile, and desktop`*` app. And they appear to take [data redundancy](https://ente.io/reliability) very seriously, so it should be a reliable way to backup photos. I think it’d be great if privacyguides made a photos section under recommendations, where ente and similar options can be listed. Some other options that can be listed are [stingle](https://stingle.org/) (however it’s not been audited, and mobile only). And [immich](https://github.com/immich-app/immich) which has a familiar UI to google photos, and is a great option if selfhosting. `*` it’s worth noting the ente desktop app doesn’t appear to have been audited. Regarding clients, only the web and mobile apps are listed in cure53’s report. --- ## Post 31 by @dngray — 2023-07-31T17:18:18Z This has already been accepted and is a part of the current WIP PR > > > **Important conflict of interest update, see:** https://github.com/privacyguides…/privacyguides.org/pull/2102#issuecomment-1747401016 > > > - [x] I have disclosed any relevant conflicts of interest in my post. > - [x] I agree to grant Privacy Guides a perpetual, worldwide, non-exclusive, transferable, royalty-free, irrevocable license with the right to sublicense such rights through multiple tiers of sublicensees, to reproduce, modify, display, perform, relicense, and distribute my contribution as part of this project. > - [x] I am the sole author of this work. > - [x] I agree to the [Community Code of Conduct](https://www.privacyguides.org/en/code_of_conduct/). --- ## Post 32 by @Bhaelros — 2023-07-31T21:59:57Z They should work on their pricing imho. --- ## Post 33 by @vishnukvmd — 2023-08-01T12:37:30Z > [@ch3k](#): > > it’s worth noting the ente desktop app doesn’t appear to have been audited. Regarding clients, only the web and mobile apps are listed in cure53’s report. Hey, one of the folks building ente here. Thank you for the feedback! Just to be clear, our desktop app is an Electron wrapper over our web app. The web app is configured as a submodule (`ui`) here: [GitHub - ente-io/photos-desktop: 📦 Binary releases of the Ente Photos desktop app](https://github.com/ente-io/photos-desktop) So the code within the audited web app is what our desktop app relies on. --- ## Post 34 by @ua741 — 2023-08-21T07:13:18Z ![](//forum-uploads.privacyguidesusercontent.com/original/2X/d/d3873481f248e02c82f42375c69b551b1c2a3f63.jpeg) Hello [@team](/groups/team) It’s been close to 5 months since `ente photos` was approved (and 2 years since our initial request for review). Can you please advise us on how we can move forward? If reviewing other photo products is the blocker, can we request get a listing under the cloud storage section with a relevant note/warning that the service only supports photos & videos? We understand the amount of effort and work the PG team puts into reviewing and running the community, and we don’t want to unnecessarily bother your team with the same request multiple times. --- ## Post 35 by @dngray — 2023-08-21T10:43:16Z It actually needs to be finished that PR, one that @jonah had started on. Not sure why it was a combined one though, will have to check. --- ## Post 36 by @ph00lt0 — 2023-09-07T19:23:41Z Basically because of the discussion on ent auth i decided to have another look at this. This really has become an amazing product on first sight. I am actually considering to swich. Edit: Done quite some testing. Really promising product. @vishnukvmd can you tell me if it is possible to switch plans mid term? So f.x. i subscribe for 500gb and I start afding family members. I have no idea how much storage I need. Can i still upgrade if I pay yearly? --- ## Post 38 by @ph00lt0 — 2023-09-08T08:52:46Z Awesome thank you for confirming Iw as unable to find that info. --- ## Post 39 by @vishnukvmd — 2023-09-08T10:13:03Z Hey @ph00lt0, thanks a bunch for the feedback! And yes, like @Iron pointed out, you can upgrade at any point, charges will be pro-rated. We’ll figure out how we can surface this information within the subscription screen. --- ## Post 40 by @dngray — 2023-09-25T19:13:16Z I am evaluating some of the other options there and working on a description for them all, as it seems to be a combined PR. --- ## Post 41 by @Tziyoni — 2023-08-21T13:37:27Z I noticed that a few months ago there was some discussion about adding Ente but it was never added for some reason. Does anyone know why? Thanks > [@Ente (Photo Management)](https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/ente-photo-management/11763): > > Continuing a discussion at: [https://github.com/orgs/privacyguides/discussions/194#discussioncomment-4918253](https://github.com/orgs/privacyguides/discussions/194#discussioncomment-4918253)[https://ente.io/](https://ente.io/) --- ## Post 42 by @anon28734771 — 2023-08-21T13:49:26Z > > > **Important conflict of interest update, see:** https://github.com/privacyguides…/privacyguides.org/pull/2102#issuecomment-1747401016 > > > - [x] I have disclosed any relevant conflicts of interest in my post. > - [x] I agree to grant Privacy Guides a perpetual, worldwide, non-exclusive, transferable, royalty-free, irrevocable license with the right to sublicense such rights through multiple tiers of sublicensees, to reproduce, modify, display, perform, relicense, and distribute my contribution as part of this project. > - [x] I am the sole author of this work. > - [x] I agree to the [Community Code of Conduct](https://www.privacyguides.org/en/code_of_conduct/). --- ## Post 43 by @Tziyoni — 2023-08-22T21:51:12Z Can someone please explain this, I don’t understand Thank you --- ## Post 44 by @anon86237473 — 2023-09-25T10:29:48Z They’re working on a new section for photo management/sync, which is not done yet. --- ## Post 45 by @Tziyoni — 2023-09-26T02:12:26Z Thank you! --- ## Post 46 by @jonah — 2023-10-04T18:30:11Z --- ## Post 47 by @anon28734771 — 2023-10-24T17:32:18Z Hi @vishnukvmd, I saw that ente apps are available on F-Droid, which is nice, but they’re not reproducible builds. Which means that apps are signed by F-Droid and not you guys, which isn’t a big deal for me, but it’s still preferable for apps to be signed by developers, so I would love to see reproducible builds of ente apps on F-Droid. > **[Reproducible Builds | F-Droid - Free and Open Source Android App Repository](https://f-droid.org/docs/Reproducible_Builds/)** > > F-Droid works to spread reproduciblebuilds across the freesoftware Android ecosystem. The goal is to enable software build processesthat anyone can run repe... --- ## Post 48 by @vishnukvmd — 2023-10-25T03:50:56Z Hey Lukas, we’ll look into this, thanks for sharing! In the meanwhile, we’ve reproducible builds, signed by us, available over Github: > **[Releases · ente-io/photos-app](https://github.com/ente-io/photos-app/releases/)** > > ➡️ Moved to https://github.com/ente-io/ente. Contribute to ente-io/photos-app development by creating an account on GitHub. --- ## Post 49 by @jonah — 2023-11-13T00:25:29Z > **[Add Photo Management Recommendations (#2102) ·...](https://github.com/privacyguides/privacyguides.org/commit/e56081202d7ccec513b879a59b39bae0e6322b6c)** > > Co-authored-by: Daniel Gray > Signed-off-by: Freddy --- ## Post 50 by @jonah — 2023-11-13T00:25:37Z Locked as #completed