# Don't Recommend Nextcloud E2EE **URL:** https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/dont-recommend-nextcloud-e2ee/10352 **Category:** Tool Suggestions **Tags:** completed **Created:** 2022-11-24T20:28:54Z **Posts:** 31 ## Post 1 by @anon62252234 — 2022-11-24T20:28:54Z In my opinion, the recommendation to use a Nextcloud provider with E2E, or even to enable it on your own installation should be removed. I haven’t found any Nextcloud provider that actually supports E2E in my previous research. And even if you do, contacts and calendar information will still be both synced and stored fully unencrypted. Not even with server-side encryption. Then there’s the matter of Nextcloud’s end-to-end encryption being practically unusable. Just look at the reviews on [End-to-End Encryption - Apps - App Store - Nextcloud](https://apps.nextcloud.com/apps/end_to_end_encryption). It doesn’t support the Nextcloud web client, so you can no longer view files from there with it enabled, and it is in general extremely unreliable. Not to mention that, as I said, it doesn’t apply to contacts or calendar information. The best thing you can do, and what should be recommended, is to simply not use a provider, and to self-host, with or without enabling E2E on your installation. For NextcloudPi users, there’s an option to encrypt the Nextcloud data directory, which means a password is required on every boot. This protects against an attacker with physical access, who can access your server-side encryption key. If you host Nextcloud using another method, you will have to do this yourself. I’m not sure how exactly, as it’s not my case, but this is definitely the best method to ensure your data is safe, both from a physical attack, and from the extremely unreliable E2E “support” Nextcloud has. --- ## Post 2 by @ph00lt0 — 2022-11-24T23:43:23Z Fully agreeing here. The e2ee is flawed, a malicious servers can obtain encrypted files without user interaction (does require an active client) so there is not much benefit in enabling it. Personally I am awaiting proton drive to get sync. That would have been my go on writing the above and voting for total removal of Nextcloud. Nextcloud is a pain to maintain. Has many known issues with unreliable backup systems, data loss and corruption in the clients, and upgrades more than often lead to database failures. Instead of investing time in this and in the speed issues Nextcloud has (it is very heavy) they all the time seem to loose focus and yet introduce a new app be it automations, social parts, video calling etc. On the other hand we don’t have (m)any alternatives when it comes to hosting documents, contacts and calendars. Especially for collaboration. Although I have never seen any OnlyOffice or Collabora installation for Nextcloud that works really well with multiple users. --- ## Post 3 by @anon73250778 — 2022-11-25T01:02:52Z I dont think we should remove it, just change it so that it suggest self hosting via a VPS. Also IIRC Weibo Hosting allows for a managed paid tier with their Nextcloud Admin service offering. It gives you the option to enable E2EE and server side encryption (and pick which app yoi want activated) unlike all of the free tiers offered in the Nextcloud website. --- ## Post 4 by @ph00lt0 — 2022-11-25T12:46:10Z I don’t think we should be recommending any third party hosting. Self hosted cab be okayish but one needs to trust the hosting provider. As the website currently doesn’t list any hosting providers it may not be the best. I know a few providers that can host Nextcloud instances that are quite alright. But I am generally hesitant to recommend it. The providers are Owncube (AT) and Hetzner (DE). Owncube allows you to install apps too. I have never heard of the provider you mention and also cannot find any information on it. But as said the e2ee is flawed so this doesn’t really matter whether you have it on or not. The provider can obtain your documents. --- ## Post 5 by @dngray — 2022-11-25T13:08:55Z This is actually something we’ve been thinking of doing internally for a while now. --- ## Post 6 by @anon63378630 — 2022-11-25T13:37:00Z If it is removed, perhaps it should be replaced with a warning as well. Many people even think SSE instances are secure, despite being [demonstrated](https://community.e.foundation/t/service-announcement-26-may/41252/27) otherwise. --- ## Post 7 by @anon73250778 — 2022-11-25T22:00:36Z > [@ph00lt0](#): > > I don’t think we should be recommending any third party hosting. Self hosted cab be okayish but one needs to trust the hosting provider. I thought the whole point of E2EE was that you did not need to trust the provider because the encryption happened on your side) assuming the encryption was properly implemented. I dont work in computer security, can you elaborate (or at least give your source) on how flawed it is, exactly? I did try to expore the data directory and it at least, seemed encrypted with randomly generated file names and directories. About the hosting provider you asked: > **[Nextcloud Admin plans - Webo Cloud private hosting services](https://webo.cloud/nextcloud-admin/)** > > Private, fast and secure Nextcloud hosting, with full admin access, unlimited users and free daily backups at webo.cloud! --- ## Post 8 by @ph00lt0 — 2022-11-26T11:56:33Z I am aware of 5 security issues with Nextcloud’s e2ee. I have no idea of the status as they never replied to my reports. 1. The private key of e2ee is stored on the server. 2. The directory info and meta is not encrypted. This is also enabling 3 an 4. 3. It was/is possible to move files manually and db actions to have to a none encrypted folder. This makes/made the desktop client move the non encrypted file and upload it to the web server in plain. So you could/can instruct the desktop client to upload all files as a malicious server. 4. It was/is possible to delete files from the web client, after sync with desktop client the file was/is present unprecedentedly in the trash. 5. The e2ee has a few times prevented the Nextcloud instances from updating as it was not kept up to date and prevented upgrades to new versions due to incompatibility. This issue is common with many nextcloud apps. Additionally I am aware of several issues with double key generation causing existence of multiple key-pairs per user and making it impossible to sync files and several issues with files getting locked indefinitely. Conclusion, it’s flawed, they don’t know what they are doing, and it is very unstable. --- ## Post 9 by @ph00lt0 — 2022-11-26T12:04:43Z Actually another less of an issue problem. Nextcloud uses low entropy passphrases. This may be a problem for some trying to get an certification. If your organization follows NIST or NSA recommendations this will not pass. ANSSI allows this kind of entropy untill 3030. Yet no plans for change have been made so it may be good to be aware of this. --- ## Post 10 by @ph00lt0 — 2022-11-26T12:15:43Z In your previous post you wrote Weibo, which is some Chinese twitter-like platform. I have never heard of this provider. By now I actually know that Owncube also uses Hetzner but they manage it for you. Their data center is ISO27001 certified. It’s a baseline but it does at least show they meet it. Given the locations listed on the website of Webo I think they use Hetzner too. Webo is just a lot more expensive than Owncube while offering the same services. --- ## Post 11 by @anon62252234 — 2022-11-26T17:54:32Z Where did you get the information that the e2ee key was stored on the server? That would defeat the entire purpose, and I would think the Privacy Guides team would know about that, or they wouldn’t recommend it? --- ## Post 12 by @ph00lt0 — 2022-11-26T18:10:17Z No it doesn’t defeat the purpose. I haven’t phrased this very well I must admit. Afaik the private key is encrypted using the passphrase. They key is kept on the server and the user decrypts this with the passphrase. This is quite a common practice. It can however lead to several security issues when one doesn’t trust the server. And in my later post I explained also that the passphrase used could be improved. That’s why some people take issue with this. --- ## Post 13 by @anon62252234 — 2022-11-26T18:16:06Z Oh, that makes more sense. It’s still unstable though, and when self-hosting, it makes a lot more sense to simply encrypt your installation itself. --- ## Post 14 by @anon73250778 — 2022-11-26T20:26:43Z I dont know how to feel about this. I am currently using nextcloud as a contacts and calendar sync online and store some critical files on a VPS to avoid exposing my local network directly to the internet. Looks like I will be moving the whole thing to the local network and let stuff sync at home instead. So what actual _functioning_ alternatives do we have? I dont want to go all in on Protonmail because they are already having my email and it doesnt seem wise to put it all eggs on one basket, so they say. --- ## Post 15 by @ph00lt0 — 2022-11-26T21:01:24Z I think given how many details of your contacts and appointments are in email i doubt it make much if a difference. I personally don’t use proton for it because it doesn’t meet my needs. But if it does for you i would just use it. Unfortunately there are not many options. --- ## Post 16 by @anon62252234 — 2022-11-26T21:50:34Z Alternatives to Nextcloud for files? Only Proton Drive really, and it’s not great in its current state. For contacts and calendar through, you can use EteSync, which is end-to-end encrypted, but it costs $24 a year, unless you self-host. When self-hosting EteSync or Nextcloud, you can use tailscale to avoid exposing your local network to the outside. --- ## Post 17 by @ph00lt0 — 2022-11-27T00:22:06Z Etesync just got removed from the website last week. Unfortunately its not being maintained. It’s a though situation. Hopefully Proton is improving soon. But its not a great situation to be so limited in options. --- ## Post 18 by @anon73250778 — 2022-11-29T06:36:44Z Is self hosting Nextcloud at home and exposing it to the internet via wireguard the only sane way to do the stuff that a VPS hosted Nextcloud can do? Specifically for cardDAV/calDAV sync and other nextcloud apps like gpodder sync? --- ## Post 19 by @ph00lt0 — 2022-11-29T07:00:42Z Depends on your threat model. Can’t answer this for you. I would say normally this should be okay, but i don’t know your home circumstances, your exposure etc. --- ## Post 20 by @dngray — 2022-12-01T06:26:49Z Changes to this are being made in [Recommend against Nextcloud E2EE by dngray · Pull Request #1901 · privacyguides/privacyguides.org · GitHub](https://github.com/privacyguides/privacyguides.org/pull/1901) --- ## Post 22 by @jospoortvliet — 2022-12-07T16:04:56Z > [@ph00lt0](#): > > No it doesn’t defeat the purpose. I haven’t phrased this very well I must admit. Afaik the private key is encrypted using the passphrase. They key is kept on the server and the user decrypts this with the passphrase. This is quite a common practice. It can however lead to several security issues when one doesn’t trust the server. And in my later post I explained also that the passphrase used could be improved. That’s why some people take issue with this. Hi Ph00lt0, is there by any chance a ticket that explains/addresses the issues with this from a theoretical POV? (disclaimer: Nextcloud guy here, I wrote the E2EE whitepaper on our website, so while I’m no dev I know the theoretical design of our E2EE fairly well). The entire point of our E2EE is to protect you from a fully untrusted server, even if a Bad Person is in there permanently - so if there are issues with its design, the whole E2EE would be entirely pointless and I’d like to know :wink: The passphrase is 12 random words from a large dictionary - that WE pick (so the user can’t pick a bad password) and only store locally, never on the server - that should, well, do the trick. Does this have a better solution? I mean, a QR code could be nice, that is something we want to add to make it easier to add other devices, but it’s not too hard to use as it is. With regards to stability, we have large customers using E2EE with the latest version of the server, and we haven’t had any data loss or other issues for quite a while. The main issue, in my opinion, is one of usability, with the E2EE pass phrase being hard to manage, something we fixed with 25 (where you can reset the E2EE from the web UI) and the 2.7 version of our client (which is a bit smarter in handling it, release is coming in a few weeks I believe). I would like to ask to remove the warning, as it is certainly no more unstable or risky than the other solutions mentioned - it merely has more users and exists for a longer time than other solutions, which naturally results in more complaints to be found about it. Though maybe we wait a bit, so people are running the latest versions - running old software is never a good idea of course, but people do it anyway. Edit: need to double-check the app store status, I’m confused now. I don’t want to say everything is perfect, by the way - but then, no product is. And we of course work to improve things, all the time. In terms of alternatives (sorry, reading up now on the whole thread): why not recommend TressorIT? They do E2EE file sync and exist for a long time. I haven’t used it myself but I don’t really see any con’s to it vs Proton Drive, which is also not open source or self-hosted/distributed. Just curious, not proposing to add them, but people asked for other alternatives… (on a different note, I don’t get how one could recommend a E2EE solution that works through the web - I know there are lots of tricks these days, but still, trusting javascript coming from the server means, in my book, trusting the server. Or do Proton and Cryptee use an open source browser plugin? In that case, ignore me) --- ## Post 23 by @ph00lt0 — 2022-12-07T20:16:50Z Hi Jos, Glad you used a disclaimer, I personally was already aware. Cool to see you here on the forum btw, most welcome! With all the respect, I must start to address a concern. The fact that you wrote the E2EE whitepaper while not being a developer or cryptographer, I am not sure how that is possible? It does sound problematic. The [whitepaper](https://nextcloud.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/Nextcloud-end-to-end-encryption-Whitepaper.pdf) is also very basic and doesn’t really explain architectural decisions. The whitepaper describes that you don’t use padding for GCM, which to me sounds very obvious, but it would be good to learn why you chose GCM (not saying it is a bad choice). Generally I don’t have a good experience with Nextcloud’ techical understanding. I once have been told by one of the developers of the E2EE app that it is technically impossible to support this in the web app, which obviously is not true. I am not sure on which issue you are asking for a POC? For the decryption attack I actually have tried to reach out to Nextcloud several times, but had not much luck in this. This has been quite some months/years ago. I am completely unaware of the status, as I have never heard anything back. It used to be possible to by moving the metadata file, instruct the desktop client to move files to an unencrypted folder. This resulted in the desktop client than uploading the file that was supposed to be E2EE in unencrypted form. Obviously this attack will likely go noticed at some point but it defeated the trust model. Perhaps it has been mitigated, who knows? I would love to retest this, but I am currently short on time so don’t expect me to run this any time soon. Perhaps you could verify whether such attack would now be possible with your architects. Exactly as you described Nextcloud users a dictionary of chosen words. I like the enforcement of passwords that are good, but the entropy is considered to be low. The concern was raised here but never got a reply: [Change mnemonic length · Issue #59 · nextcloud/end\_to\_end\_encryption\_rfc · GitHub](https://github.com/nextcloud/end_to_end_encryption/issues/220) Generally Nextcloud E2EE uses 128 bits which is fairly low. This may not be a problem now but will be in the very near future see: [https://keylength.com](https://keylength.com) One of the concerns on stability was raised here: ["Cannot sync due to invalid modification time" · Issue #4378 · nextcloud/desktop · GitHub](https://github.com/nextcloud/desktop/issues/4378) I still after months of this issue receive notifications about people struggling to get this resolved. No proper solution was build. Generally mistakes like this are horrible and should have been covered by unit tests. The fact that the backup app is often not up to date and incompatible with the latest version of Nextcloud (this happened several times) does not help this case. The issue you mention about it not being possible to to reset the keys is something I quite some time ago after the different client incorrectly generated multiple keypairs for my users: [Double prompt to setup e2ee passphrase. · Issue #248 · nextcloud/end\_to\_end\_encryption · GitHub](https://github.com/nextcloud/end_to_end_encryption/issues/248). This generally shouldn’t be possible in the architecture. I am not responsible the content of this website as I am not a team member at this point. I do however share the opinion that this warning is rightfully and deserved. Other solutions are at this point a better alternative in our eyes. Generally this community only recommends encryption software that has been properly audited. I agree that the landscape is limited. I myself have been a huge fan and promoter of Nextcloud, sadly it never has became what I thought it would be and I have lost my faith. I see the organization building on all sorts of funky features and new apps but there is no coherent support of the current app base while almost all of them lack critical improvements. ([Issues in desktop client and mobile apps · Issue #4536 · nextcloud/desktop · GitHub](https://github.com/nextcloud/desktop/issues/4536)) If you like open an discussion for suggestion of TressorIT please go ahead, but let’s keep this thread on topic. --- ## Post 24 by @ph00lt0 — 2022-12-07T20:23:39Z > [@jospoortvliet](#): > > (on a different note, I don’t get how one could recommend a E2EE solution that works through the web - I know there are lots of tricks these days, but still, trusting javascript coming from the server means, in my book, trusting the server. Or do Proton and Cryptee use an open source browser plugin? In that case, ignore me) We do not recommend the use of browser extensions as they allow for profiling of users. I understand your concern about Javascript comes from, however if you trust the author of the code you run, you can trust their JavaScript file. There is no difference in trust level here. With products that are hosted by several other companies that is another discussion. But Proton and Cryptee being closed source this argument does not apply. --- ## Post 25 by @anon73250778 — 2022-12-08T02:06:13Z Thank you for fi ding time to drop by! I would also like to ask if the contacts and calendars are also protected with E2EE? I would like to use a remote VPS (Linode) as a host for my Nextcloud instance and sync via CalDAV and CardDAV. Does it make more sense to self-host and sync it at home? --- ## Post 26 by @anon62252234 — 2022-12-08T05:34:53Z They are not. If you want E2EE contacts and calendars, you should host EteSync. --- ## Post 27 by @ph00lt0 — 2022-12-08T12:02:44Z I dont want to drive this off any further but Etesync has been removed from the recommendations. --- ## Post 28 by @jospoortvliet — 2023-01-02T14:03:58Z Sorry for the late reply! > [@ph00lt0](#): > > With all the respect, I must start to address a concern. The fact that you wrote the E2EE whitepaper while not being a developer or cryptographer, I am not sure how that is possible? It does sound problematic. The is also very basic and doesn’t really explain architectural decisions. The whitepaper describes that you don’t use padding for GCM, which to me sounds very obvious, but it would be good to learn why you chose GCM (not saying it is a bad choice) When I say I wrote it - our security team gave me the info, I wrote it up in a… prettier way? Then they reviewed it :wink: I certainly didn’t come up with any of the actual design, of course. It’s just that by writing & some back and forth, I have a fairly good idea of the design and the why’s behind it (I generally don’t like to write about something unless I know more than what I need to write down). But I’m no expert and your comment on GCM, for example, already flies over my head. > Generally I don’t have a good experience with Nextcloud’ techical understanding. I once have been told by one of the developers of the E2EE app that it is technically impossible to support this in the web app, which obviously is not true. Well, a browser isn’t really much of a client - at least in my understanding. It’s more of an extension of the server, running code coming FROM the server - and if you don’t trust the server (from a threat model POV) then you can’t trust its code and thus… you can’t do this in the browser, strictly speaking. So if that’s true, then there isn’t that much benefit from using HTTPS or GPG-in-the-browser, right? If you trust the server, well, then, why not just use disk encryption & https, what is the benefit of the extra layer of encryption? Maybe a slight improvement, but not fundamentally different - an attacker (government, or somebody who broke in) who controls the server will simply send a piece of malicious javascript that steals the key. Ok, it’s a little harder, but that is not what people expect when you say end-to-end encryption. It is just marketing bla bla. To me, End to end only makes sense with open source clients, at the least. Of course, if the server is proprietary and run by a company with venture capital, somebody will want to earn money on its sale, so the clock is ticking. But that’s a choice. So I think a better model is fully open client and server tech, but that is entirely my opinion on this matter, of course. (and I know there’s demand for browser-side encryption, and esp to upload to somebody it makes quite some sense. As long as it comes with a serious warning… people need to know it isn’t the same as client side encryption.) > I am not sure on which issue you are asking for a POC? For the decryption attack I actually have tried to reach out to Nextcloud several times, but had not much luck in this. This has been quite some months/years ago. I am completely unaware of the status, as I have never heard anything back. It used to be possible to by moving the metadata file, instruct the desktop client to move files to an unencrypted folder. This resulted in the desktop client than uploading the file that was supposed to be E2EE in unencrypted form. Obviously this attack will likely go noticed at some point but it defeated the trust model. Perhaps it has been mitigated, who knows? I would love to retest this, but I am currently short on time so don’t expect me to run this any time soon. Perhaps you could verify whether such attack would now be possible with your architects. Ah, I guess you created a H1 issue for this? It seems a valid issue that I would hope has been addressed by now, but I will ask internally. I actually meant the passphrase thing you seemed to say wasn’t safe. But that there are other issues - like that one - that can be abused, yes, that is a good catch and should be fixed. > Generally Nextcloud E2EE uses 128 bits which is fairly low. That’s something we could address going forward. I don’t know how urgent this is. Stability and performance have been our recent focus and continue to be worked on, next are some key features like sharing. As usual, if somebody considers this super important, they can help make it happen, either financially or by doing the work. > One of the concerns on stability was raised here: > I still after months of this issue receive notifications about people struggling to get this resolved. No proper solution was build. Generally mistakes like this are horrible and should have been covered by unit tests. Hum, a ton of work was put in fixing this, including an extensive wiki page documenting it: > **[How to fix the error invalid or negative modification date](https://github.com/nextcloud/desktop/wiki/How-to-fix-the-error-invalid-or-negative-modification-date)** > > 💻 Desktop sync client for Nextcloud. Contribute to nextcloud/desktop development by creating an account on GitHub. and scripts that can help fix it. If a programatic fix in the client or server had been possible, it would have been done. I recall the issue and we spend a ton of time discussing how it could be fixed transparently to the users/admins. We really don’t wish to inflict problems like this! I agree it’s a horrible mistake and should not happen, but it’s not nice to see how much work was put in fixing it, writing scripts and documentation, all without getting paid for it, and then people claim we didn’t do anything to fix it. But that is, I guess, the result if you do things open source it seems :confused: > The fact that the backup app is often not up to date and incompatible with the latest version of Nextcloud (this happened several times) does not help this case. Well, there’s a warning when you upgrade about what apps are compatible, and you can enable them regardless of a compatibility warning as they usually work. Beyond delaying releases indefinitely or somehow forcing all app authors to spend time to update their apps, I don’t know how we can fix that. Only apps we have customers for we can maintain for free. Anything else - when not shipped as part of our core Nextcloud zip file - has exactly as much guarantees as you are paying for. We want to do better, but how? Suggestions are welcome, we are trying to improve our communication about this. > I agree that the landscape is limited. I myself have been a huge fan and promoter of Nextcloud, sadly it never has became what I thought it would be and I have lost my faith. I see the organisation building on all sorts of funky features and new apps but there is no coherent support of the current app base while almost all of them lack critical improvements. Sorry to hear that. I’m not sure why you lost your faith. I mean, you point to frustrated users, but we have about 300-400K servers online, with in some cases millions of users on them - I think it is absolutely inevitable that there are lots of complaints. Especially as the critical feature for one is a funky, useless feature for another. And just like a bug that affects 0.1% of iPhone 14 Pro users will have more Reddit posts than one that impacts the same percentage of users of a Nokia model. I won’t claim Nextcloud has no bugs, but we fix them as fast as we can, and generally in order of how many users are impacted (as far as we can determine that). Our engineers spend the vast majority of their time on finding and fixing bugs and doing support and improving/refactoring old code than marketing feature development. But yes, there will always be bugs as we have to keep up with demands of users and customers (like accessibility or encryption protocols), the market (basic features in collaboration platforms) and technology (new PHP versions, Vue etc). Claims like “there is no coherent support of the current app base” are just so incredibly off-base that I don’t even know what to say - our biggest engineering team works on files and they are continuously improving performance, stability, refactoring code (like porting the Files app to Vue), supporting new PHP versions and so on. But I guess nobody notices it when stuff just works, and only when something goes wrong do you get attention. Look, we’re doing this open source, on-prem and self-funded. So it’s a ton harder to pay your engineers then if you follow the standard IT model where you get venture capital to build up a proprietary SAAS company which you can then sell and make your investors rich. What that means in the long term - that’s something I leave to all of you to decide. --- ## Post 29 by @jospoortvliet — 2023-01-02T14:12:08Z With regards to the warning, I’ll keep an eye on development, as many of you do I’m sure. E2EE will certainly work reliably in several large customer setups with the benefit of our support and fortune 500 companies are surprisingly unwilling to risk data loss, but I know the multitude of use cases home and SMB users have takes longer to stabilise. So perhaps mid 2023 we can have a conversation again about how likely it is a normal private user can run a Nextcloud E2EE setup without risk. --- ## Post 30 by @ph00lt0 — 2023-01-08T13:12:51Z Hi Jos, Thank you for addressing the concerns. I agree with you that in the case of Nextcloud e2ee does not add much when the server is not trusted, because it can be manipulated. There is potential for solutions here by adding a chain of trust, but indeed open source clients are also a good solution. The urgency of moving to 128 may not be so high now, but if one would collect this now for decryption later on this would be problematic depending on how long you want to keep it secret. I know that some governments would not accept this as a solution for this reason. I disagree with the ‘ton’ of work in fixing that issue on stability. The solution offered is a very poor solution that doesn’t work well. As those clients were not updated (as I also wrote there) the issue would just come back every time in shared folders. The correct solution here would be to auto patch it or suggest it through the sync clients. The script did not solve the issue and caused a lot of headache. Lately with the upgrade to Nextcloud 25 I had many local sync databases of clients getting corrupted. Only solution were was to pruge those manually and restart the syncing. This could have easily be an automatic, or remote based feature. Also the statement about the warning is incorrect. I have automatic updates and this completely ignores those. Now with Nextcloud 25 one of your own apps “Impersonation” was disabled on update. It’s not just third party apps. I do not understand how you can release new versions without having tested it with your own apps. That would be okay for beta software, not for something running on production. Also if your test landscape would be well build this all could be automated with unit tests. I am not sure how you can say there is support when these things happen. I think many more users are frustrated with Nextclouds way of operation. I have had quite a few clients who I helped with payed for Nextcloud setups, 50ish % of them have now moved back to Microsoft. Not because they want to, but because Nextcloud is slow and too buggy. I cannot disagree with this. I am worried about your statement: “surprisingly unwilling to risk data loss”. If an organization has propper key management and Nextcloud would have support for this, no data loss should have to occur. This is a choice not a risk. Personally I think that Nextcloud will completely be removed from recommendations once others come with more stable solutions. I foresee that others will agree with me to raise the bar of requirements. I honestly would love to see it being different and Nextcloud catching up with the issues. I believe nobody has hard feelings against the project and we all love the goals and mindset of the company. I however take issue with the management of problems and how things are going development wise. I am sure that the community is always open to review the software again, and I can ensure that many including myself still use Nextcloud and strongly follow the developments. --- ## Post 31 by @ph00lt0 — 2023-01-08T13:16:08Z I forgot to add, that I am a bit frustrated with the argument of Nextcloud that often comes up with addressing issues. When users complain about the stability and performance often their set up and hardware is blamed, even when this is a supported set up. I always believed this argument, but I myself got account on the by Nextcloud hosted solution as well and I cannot say the performance is any better, just as well as the vague errors it outputs. --- ## Post 32 by @jonah — 2023-02-13T18:16:14Z > > > This is something we should have recommended against some time ago: > > - https:/…/discuss.privacyguides.net/t/remove-nextcloud-e2e-recommendation/10352/7 > - https://github.com/privacyguides/privacyguides.org/discussions/1484 > > It doesn't look like it's made a whole lot of progress either: > > - https://github.com/privacytools/privacytools.io/issues/2054#issuecomment-695860956 > - https://github.com/privacytools/privacytools.io/issues/197 --- ## Post 33 by @jonah — 2023-02-13T18:16:55Z