# Cheaper VPN service recommendations? **URL:** https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/cheaper-vpn-service-recommendations/20844 **Category:** Questions **Created:** 2024-09-12T21:36:08Z **Posts:** 81 ## Post 1 by @TheDoc — 2024-09-12T21:36:08Z Without revealing too much private information about them or their situations, I have some low-income friends who would benefit from using a VPN service. The few trustworthy free VPN services are too limited for what they’re looking for, but ProtonVPN, Mullvad, and IVPN are all a bit too pricey for them. To set a specific budget, I’d say I’m looking to recommend them a VPN service that is $3.50 USD per month or less. We’re also hoping to avoid super long term plans that give you a bigger discount if you pay for 2+ years upfront. Both because they probably can’t afford a massive payment upfront, but also because I want to avoid locking them in with a provider for an extended period of time. Let’s say we’re aiming to stick to plans where you pay for 1 year or less. My first thought was Private Internet Access (PIA). I don’t have the time to fetch all the sources, so correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe that their clients are open source, they are audited, they use reasonable encryption (for now), and I believe their no-logs policy was proven in court multiple times. For a 1 year plan, it comes in under our budget at only $3.33/m. Would anyone have any objections to PIA or have alternative suggestions? --- ## Post 2 by @Bhaelros — 2024-09-12T21:52:34Z I think Windscribe will be best bet for them. They are regularly providing discount codes on events --- ## Post 3 by @xe3 — 2024-09-12T21:57:37Z > [@TheDoc](#): > > I’d say I’m looking to recommend them a VPN service that is $3.50 USD per month or less. I’ve typically been able to find (1) AirVPN, and (2) Windscribe for under $3/mo. In the case of AirVPN you get deeply discounted rates if you buy during there (usually 2-3 times a year) sales, especially if you buy 2 or 3 years upfront. These usually occur on their ‘birthday’ in the spring, Black Friday sale in the fall which often extends into December. I know you say you don’t want to prepay multiple years up front, but I mention it anyway since in the case of AirVPN the discount can be quite substantial (in some cases less than $2/mo). Windscribe has what seems like a constant stream of various discounts and deals. This commonly includes $30/yr deals, and sometimes other discounts that require jumping through some hoops, finding an easter egg, or some other caveat. --- ## Post 4 by @fria — 2024-09-12T23:58:30Z > **[1.1.1.1 — The free app that makes your Internet faster.](https://one.one.one.one/)** > > Install the free app that makes your phone’s Internet more fast, private, and reliable. Cloudflare WARP is free. --- ## Post 5 by @anon36940904 — 2024-09-13T00:05:16Z This is not a VPN --- ## Post 6 by @anon36940904 — 2024-09-13T00:06:30Z Mullvad is 1 EUR per month per device and you can have 5 devices on one subscription. Are you sure it’s still not affordable for them? --- ## Post 7 by @BionicBison — 2024-09-13T00:36:30Z > [@anon36940904](#): > > This is not a VPN It is, just a very limited one. You can’t choose the server location and you do have to trust Cloudflare, but it will hide your traffic from your ISP. --- ## Post 8 by @anon36940904 — 2024-09-13T00:46:35Z It’s a DNS resolver. They don’t hide things from your ISP. No where on the website does it say it’s a VPN. --- ## Post 9 by @Shampoo — 2024-09-13T00:48:23Z [https://x.com/eastdakota/status/1176987146177196032](https://x.com/eastdakota/status/1176987146177196032) That’s a link to Matthew Price saying your IP will be passed along to website owners if you use warp. --- ## Post 10 by @BionicBison — 2024-09-13T00:55:44Z > [@Shampoo](#): > > That’s a link to Matthew Price saying your IP will be passed along to website owners if you use warp. This should no longer be the case: [https://community.cloudflare.com/t/use-warp-as-custom-vpn/648490/2](https://community.cloudflare.com/t/use-warp-as-custom-vpn/648490/2) > [@anon36940904](#): > > It’s a DNS resolver. They don’t hide things from your ISP. The above link should clarify this as well. You’re not wrong, 1.1.1.1 is in fact a DNS resolver, but Cloudflare WARP can be accessed with the same app that allows you to access 1.1.1.1, and this is a VPN. --- ## Post 11 by @TheDoc — 2024-09-13T00:57:29Z Thanks! Is there anywhere we should look for in particular? Or should we just keep an eye on their social media? --- ## Post 12 by @TheDoc — 2024-09-13T01:04:46Z The €5 is a flat fee, so unfortunately they can’t save a buck or two by removing devices. --- ## Post 13 by @Gh0st — 2024-09-13T02:34:51Z I believe Mullvad is a great deal, $5 a month and pay as you go. It’s not $3.50 price, but still can’t go wrong. --- ## Post 14 by @anon63378630 — 2024-09-13T03:39:57Z Kaspersky Premium with VPN is $30 a year for 10 devices. The absolute very best of deals! You can use my referral code to get half off too! > **code** > > ``` > K A S P E R S K Y > A A > S S 1 > P P 1 > E E 1 > R R 1 > S S 1 > K K > Y NUMBER ONE Y > ``` * * * on a serious note, Proton VPN offers an unlimited free no-account guest mode. but note guest mode on the Android version only works from the Google Play Store variant I personally don’t care for Proton, but PG recommends them. and Riseup VPN is also an option, you can use it via the Bitmask app on all platforms: - [VPN - riseup.net](https://riseup.net/en/vpn) - my old thread: [Riseup as a free VPN?](https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/riseup-as-a-free-vpn/15677) and lastly there is always Tor. - my thread on Tor: [Why people don't like Tor?](https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/why-people-dont-like-tor/19006) as far as paid goes, I don’t think anything seriously beats the polish and technical prowess of Mullvad for the $5 a month. depending on how close you are with your friends maybe just consider paying for 2-3 accounts and sharing them and splitting the cost so it is less? --- ## Post 15 by @anon55464882 — 2024-09-13T04:30:34Z Although Privacy Guides does not currently recommend it, I believe Windscribe provides excellent value for your money. I pay just $9 per year, which breaks down to less than $1 per month, and it allows unlimited device usage. While I primarily use Mullvad as my VPN these days, I still maintain my Windscribe subscription due to its affordability. As far as I know they don’t offer the $9 annual subscription anymore, but you can still often find it for $19 or $29 per year. They frequently run promotional deals and discount codes, and they don’t raise prices as long as you keep your subscription active. --- ## Post 16 by @BlackDog — 2024-09-13T07:42:47Z Another vote for Windscribe. They do a ‘build-a-plan’ tier - “Starting at just $3 per month, you can get access to all nodes in any two Pro locations you want as well as Unlimited Bandwidth. You can add whichever locations you plan on using to your plan and you can even edit the plan in the middle of the month without paying any extra fees, just pay for what you use.” I tried this for a while and then when one of their frequent deals came up I took that: $29 a year for the Pro Plan. They also offer a free, limited node, 10 GB a month plan. --- ## Post 17 by @fria — 2024-09-13T11:42:47Z ![image](//forum-uploads.privacyguidesusercontent.com/original/2X/3/3987d20ed908b0c484eae81a61379159482b442e.png) 1.1.1.1 is a DNS resolver and WARP is their VPN which you can use by downloading their app. --- ## Post 18 by @anon36940904 — 2024-09-13T13:26:39Z Does your IP address change when you use Warp? --- ## Post 19 by @fria — 2024-09-13T15:16:20Z Yes. It’ll give you an ip address nearby though for speed/to maintain a general location. --- ## Post 20 by @anon36940904 — 2024-09-13T15:33:30Z I still don’t think this qualifies as a VPN though. Even ControlD DNS can give you a different IP address and you can choose as well - doesn’t make it a VPN. --- ## Post 21 by @fria — 2024-09-13T15:45:44Z ![image](//forum-uploads.privacyguidesusercontent.com/original/2X/4/4bc5795221701ae60da228bf7c882d8e2a58f492.png) > **[Introducing WARP: fixing mobile Internet performance and security](https://blog.cloudflare.com/1111-warp-better-vpn/)** > > Today we're excited to announce what we began to plan more than two years ago: the 1.1.1.1 App with WARP performance and security technology. We built Warp from the ground up to thrive in the harsh conditions of the modern mobile Internet. Cloudflare themselves call it a VPN. If ControlD offers something similar then that would also be a VPN. A DNS resolver isn’t going to change your IP address. --- ## Post 22 by @anon36940904 — 2024-09-13T16:26:24Z Right. If you read my comment again: I said I don’t think so. What it may or may not be technically is another question. --- ## Post 23 by @anon80779245 — 2024-09-13T16:55:39Z Truth is, you should use non-recommended services very cautiously. Why is Proton free not enough ? --- ## Post 24 by @anon63378630 — 2024-09-13T17:19:51Z I don’t think Warp should be recommended: - it is proprietary client - it gives Cloudflare an unprecedented level of access to communications since many websites are also behind CF - it doesn’t actually promote any privacy claims and still unclear if they do share real IP with enterprise customers --- ## Post 25 by @TheDoc — 2024-09-13T21:37:41Z > [@anon80779245](#): > > Why is Proton free not enough ? Honestly, I haven’t even mentioned it to them. I used it in the past and the speeds were unbearably slow. I didn’t want them to have a bad experience with VPNs or with Proton, so I figured it’d be better to pick a more affordable paid service. However, that was long ago so maybe things are better now. I think I might try ProtonVPN’s free plan for them and see if it’s reasonably usable on a day-to-day basis. Another issue is lack of support for certain P2P protocols such as BitTorrent. I understand why Proton would block that for their free users, but one of the friends I’m helping out are also aiming to use decentralized protocols such as BitTorrent, so a paid VPN is probably necessary. I’ll try to follow up on other suggestions to find a discount for Windscribe or AirVPN, but no luck so far. --- ## Post 26 by @anon63378630 — 2024-09-13T23:16:20Z > [@TheDoc](#): > > and the speeds were unbearably slow I just tried it and had over 120Mbps. --- ## Post 27 by @anon36940904 — 2024-09-14T13:28:07Z To be fair it also depends on how fast your internet is in the first place. That said, their free plan is definitely usable. --- ## Post 28 by @BlackDog — 2024-09-14T13:43:02Z > [@TheDoc](#): > > I’ll try to follow up on other suggestions to find a discount for Windscribe or AirVPN, but no luck so far. [Stack Social](https://www.stacksocial.com/sales/windscribe-vpn-pro-plan-1-year-subscription) usually have deals on Windscribe VPN. --- ## Post 29 by @anon80779245 — 2024-09-14T17:11:58Z > [@TheDoc](#): > > Another issue is lack of support for certain P2P protocols such as BitTorrent. You can torrent using ProtonVPN, but P2P isn’t officially supported. > [@TheDoc](#): > > maybe things are better now The speed is fine IMO. > [@TheDoc](#): > > find a discount for Windscribe or AirVPN, but no luck so far. The truth is that anything below Mullvad price will probably come at ANOTHER cost..Maybe a bad connection, an insecure app, or selling your data. At the MINIMUM, consider that anything not open-source OR non well-known for it’s respect of privacy, will be like using a spying ISP. If you are really low on budget, create new Proton account every month and use the 1$/1st month promo. Note that doing so probably violates their Tos, so be careful. You could also set up a Google cloud server (3month free) and use it with a VPN client for things like BitTorrent, and daily drive with Proton. --- ## Post 30 by @anon48875053 — 2024-09-14T18:51:54Z > [@anon80779245](#): > > The truth is that anything below Mullvad price will probably come at ANOTHER cost…Maybe a bad connection, an insecure app, or selling your data. I have Proton Unlimited subscription for the same monthly price as Mullvad, 5 euros. Mullvad, IVPN, and Proton VPN are highly profitable, that’s why Mullvad had this 5 euro per month price for over a decade without needing to raise it. --- ## Post 31 by @anon80779245 — 2024-09-14T18:58:15Z > [@anon48875053](#): > > Proton Unlimited subscription for the same monthly price as Mullvad, 5 euros. Mullvad, IVPN, and Proton VPN are highly profitable, that’s why Mullvad had this 5 euro per month price for over a decade without needing to raise it. I highly doubt they are “highly profitable”. Mullvad probably had economies of scale that equaled inflation, just my best guess. Mullvad (unlike some competitors) employs quite a lot of engineers and are very active in censorship circumvention AND surveillance avoidance. Being focused on those two goals in parallel is highly commendable, but requires a lot of ressources. --- ## Post 32 by @moonwriting — 2024-09-14T19:01:58Z > [@anon48875053](#): > > I have Proton Unlimited subscription for the same monthly price as Mullvad, 5 euros. How did you get this? --- ## Post 33 by @xe3 — 2024-09-14T19:09:58Z > [@moonwriting](#): > > How did you get this? IIRC that is the temporary discounted student price --- ## Post 34 by @ignoramous — 2024-09-14T19:18:15Z > [@fria](#): > > A DNS resolver isn’t going to change your IP address. There are several projects that (ab)use the DNS question / answer mechanism to hide client IPs. It isn’t a fool-proof solution, but works for _most_ HTTP and HTTPS (1 & 2) traffic. Limited to TCP but is relatively easier to build. There exist other more advanced implementations that work for _all_ TCP and UDP traffic, too (at this point, you’re building a CDN)! If you’re technical enough, here’s a project I wrote (for anti-censorship purposes), which you can host on `fly.io` out of the box, that does the relatively easier thing (which is also what ControlD does) discussed above: [GitHub - celzero/midway: A rudimentary middleware for port 80 and port 443 over tcp · GitHub](https://github.com/celzero/midway) Though, as you may suspect, this solution shouldn’t be considered as a _replacement_ for a public VPN (like Mullvad / Proton / iVPN etc), but as an anti-censorship measure, it is quite potent. --- ## Post 35 by @fria — 2024-09-14T19:31:38Z Very interesting thanks for sharing. --- ## Post 36 by @ignoramous — 2024-09-14T20:06:11Z > [@anon80779245](#): > > I highly doubt they are “highly profitable” _Public VPN_s are widely thought to be profitable ventures (especially for those that can consolidate lead with slick marketing) with ~60%+ profit margins. Some analysts project _Public VPN_ industry’s CAGR (compound growth rate) at ~23% (7x growth in the next 10 years). Ex: `https://medium.com/@kolpolok/pros-and-cons-of-vpn-business-72db86b20325` ([mirror](https://archive.is/RI43m)). --- ## Post 37 by @TheDoc — 2024-09-16T00:15:01Z > [@anon80779245](#): > > You can torrent using ProtonVPN, but P2P isn’t officially supported. I’m not too sure what you mean. Are you saying that Proton only advertises that BitTorrent (or P2P in general) is only available on their paid plans, but that they don’t actually block it on their free plan? --- ## Post 38 by @eqrlzo8t — 2024-09-17T02:41:50Z Windscribe is having a sale of $39/year ($3.25/month) if you can pay for a year: [https://x.com/windscribecom/status/1835720238760931758](https://x.com/windscribecom/status/1835720238760931758) --- ## Post 39 by @anon32876053 — 2024-09-17T06:12:18Z There is no such thing as a free lunch. --- ## Post 40 by @fria — 2024-09-17T06:14:02Z Well it’s similar to proton, they have a free and a paid version. --- ## Post 41 by @anon48875053 — 2024-09-17T06:17:17Z Explain all the Proton’s free plans and all the FLOSS software, if there is no “free lunch.” --- ## Post 42 by @Axl — 2024-10-31T20:55:11Z Proton VPN currently offers a 24-month plan at $3.59 per month: > **[Proton VPN - Protect yourself online | Proton VPN](https://protonvpn.com/l/vpn-home-plans-offer)** > > Proton VPN is an open-source and audited Swiss VPN that cares about your privacy. Secure your internet traffic and keep your browsing history private with Proton VPN. Enjoy --- ## Post 43 by @Cyber-Typhoon — 2024-10-31T21:36:02Z Isn’t the yearly plan $1.99? Sorry, can’t check now. Proton website is blocked at my work. Edit: I think is the ProtonMail Plus. My wires probably got crossed here. --- ## Post 44 by @Tech-Trooper — 2024-10-31T21:51:56Z Black Friday is around the corner, so check proton and windscribe next month. --- ## Post 45 by @anon80779245 — 2024-10-31T22:05:46Z > [@Tech-Trooper](#): > > so check proton and windscribe next month. They already have [Proton Black Friday Deals](https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/proton-black-friday-deals/21957) --- ## Post 46 by @xe3 — 2024-10-31T22:05:52Z > [@Tech-Trooper](#): > > Black Friday is around the corner, so check proton and windscribe next month. [The BF deals are already here](https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/proton-black-friday-deals/21957) (but not advertised afaict) and some differences compared to years past (mail and unlimited for instance are offering the deepest discounts on the 1yr sub instead of the 2 yr sub) > [@Cyber-Typhoon](#): > > Edit: I think is the ProtonMail Plus. My wires probably got crossed here. Yes, you were thinking of mail plus (1.99/mo for a year) VPN black friday deal is 2.99/mo for 2 years). Regardless, one thing to be aware of is Proton’s deals are not recurring. You don’t get a locked in price, so a slightly higher price on a 2yr plan might be more cost effective than a deeper discount on a 1 year plan, and after the term expires it reverts to full price. Based on what I know, I choose to think of any Proton discounts as “introductory offers” (nice if you needed just a little extra encouragement to subscribe to Proton, but not a meaningful discount over the longterm) --- ## Post 47 by @Tech-Trooper — 2024-10-31T22:23:20Z > [@xe3](#): > > Based on what I know, I choose to think of any Proton discounts as “introductory offers” (nice if you needed just a little extra encouragement to subscribe to Proton, but not a meaningful discount over the longterm) That’s true, and I am wondering what will happen this year it’s the 2nd year of my subscription. :grinning_face: --- ## Post 48 by @xe3 — 2024-10-31T23:01:48Z > [@Tech-Trooper](#): > > That’s true, and I am wondering what will happen this year it’s the 2nd year of my subscription. :grinning: IIRC _on paper_, Proton’s policy has been that discounts are for first time subscribers _or_ when you upgrade to a higher tier plan. But _In practice_ I don’t know what is possible or enforced. I’m interested to know whether you are able to benefit from the discount this time around. One thing that pushed me to try out Windscribe–despite having mixed feelings about them–is that (so long as you don’t let your subscription lapse) the discounted price was locked in (iirc for life, or possibly it was Vladamir Putin’s life), and my previous VPN didn’t differentiate between new and existing customers with regard to discounts (so signing up on black friday meant that I could just renew every black friday at a discounted rate). --- ## Post 49 by @Astatine — 2024-11-01T00:23:38Z > [@Axl](#): > > Proton VPN currently offers a 24-month plan at $3.59 per month. ~~And I just purchased IVPN Pro with Monero for _three years_ with a payment of $220.~~ Good for you Proton VPN users, and I guess I’ll just sit in the corner with my expensive taste in VPNs. :clap::unamused_face: --- ## Post 50 by @anonymous207 — 2024-11-01T01:33:25Z > **[IVPN Refund Policy and Process](https://www.ivpn.net/en/refunds/)** > > Refunds IVPN strives to meet the expectations of all users and offers unlimited support to help users with any problems they may face. > If you are unsatisfied for any reason, you can request a full refund within 30 days of your payment. --- ## Post 51 by @anon29374801 — 2024-11-01T03:56:27Z > [@xe3](#): > > Regardless, one thing to be aware of is Proton’s deals are not recurring. to add to this, if you decide you like the service and want to integrate more into the ecosystem you are able to, for example, get the VPN+ BF deal this year and then upgrade, to Unlimited during the next years BF to get that discount as well. I ended up going from Drive+ to Unlimited in the same way so I can confirm it works. For me it ended up being cheaper then the services I used instead, even once the discount wears off. The other way around this limit, especially with something like VPN+ is to just create a new Proton account for it each time the discount expires and then get the same pricing on the new account. One of my pet peeves with Protons pricing system is it seemingly incentivizes making new accounts to get the best deals even though multiple accounts is technically against the TOS (although I doubt they enforce it often unless you have tons). --- ## Post 52 by @rottenwheel — 2024-11-01T05:14:21Z Look into [Xeovo](https://xeovo.com/) VPN. It looks exactly like IVPN and Mullvad but cheaper. I’ll likely check it out once my current subscriptions to these two bigger ones are up for renewal. Happy to hear other’s feedback on it if anyone feels like giving it a whirl. Note that it won’t have its standalone, branded, quite possibly, polished front-end in the form of a Xeovo specific application such as IVPN or Mullvad, but still, work with WireGuard native application, just takes some manual configuration. It is just a worth option to ponder, in my humble opinion. If you use it, please post your experience and thoughts on the service! :clinking_beer_mugs: --- ## Post 53 by @Astatine — 2024-11-01T10:29:27Z Thanks, but I’ve been using it for over a month. --- ## Post 54 by @anon80779245 — 2024-11-01T13:18:08Z > [@rottenwheel](#): > > Look into [Xeovo](https://xeovo.com/) VPN. It looks exactly like IVPN and Mullvad but cheaper. I’ll likely check it out once my current subscriptions to these two bigger ones are up for renewal. Happy to hear other’s feedback on it if anyone feels like giving it a whirl. You’re free to use it, but do know that there is no info about who runs it [https://xeovo.com/about/](https://xeovo.com/about/), so this could be a honeypot, or there could be coerced by LE like was the case with [Riseup](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riseup) --- ## Post 55 by @heartbleed — 2024-11-02T10:46:32Z same I use proton free and its genuinely good ! unless they are trying to do piracy in which case they are better off with something else --- ## Post 56 by @heartbleed — 2024-11-02T10:49:35Z I think they block p2p in their free plan. there is a feature that you need to activate to enable p2p which is only available in paid plan IIRC in proton --- ## Post 57 by @Tech-Trooper — 2024-11-05T18:22:41Z You can downgrade your account one month ago before Black Friday, and upgrade again. Otherwise, it’s not possible. There are folks who did not read the terms and try this in the last minute. That did not work of course. :grinning_face: --- ## Post 58 by @anon29374801 — 2024-11-05T18:27:15Z > [@Tech-Trooper](#): > > You can downgrade your account one month ago before Black Friday, and upgrade again. Otherwise, it’s not possible. Are there any consequences if you do this with something like Drive+ ? do you instantly lose anything over the limit or how does that work? --- ## Post 59 by @anon80779245 — 2024-11-05T19:22:44Z > [@anon29374801](#): > > Are there any consequences if you do this with something like Drive+ ? do you instantly lose anything over the limit or how does that work? I had Drive+, and I got a discount but for Proton Plus overall. --- ## Post 60 by @Cyber-Typhoon — 2024-11-07T20:18:57Z Just curious, how does this works for Proton Duo. Can you downgrade to two Proton Mail Plus? --- ## Post 61 by @Tech-Trooper — 2024-11-08T18:12:36Z I did not have a try. It’s theoretical based on protons policy. --- ## Post 62 by @Cyber-Typhoon — 2024-11-08T18:52:12Z It seems a bit cumbersome. The other person gets removed from the account and gets a free 30 days trial Proton Unlimited. This kind of lock the person to not get BF deals. Nevertheless it may work well for the primary account holder to renew the Duo account again with a BF deal. > **[Get started with Proton Duo | Proton](https://proton.me/support/get-started-proton-duo)** > > The Proton Duo plan is the perfect way to introduce a family member or partner to Proton, giving them online privacy made easy. I’d love to actually see Proton giving those deals without having to go around those “gymminastics”. --- ## Post 63 by @rottenwheel — 2024-11-08T20:43:37Z Interesting. I’d be intrigued with their response if anyone was up to reach out privately via email or socials. Perhaps then they’d disclose the team menderes or company history. --- ## Post 70 by @ignoramous — 2024-12-26T12:47:35Z > [@moonwriting](#): > > [Mullvad](https://mullvad.net/en/help/swedish-legislation), this doesn’t apply to them (_emphasis all mine_) Of course, they say that in the intro. Read the fine print: > For users (of computers and other electronic devices), the new Covert Surveillance of Data Act grants law enforcement agencies the authority, upon a special permit (in each specific case) from a competent Swedish court, to `secretly install software or hardware on suspect users' devices or devices which the suspect in special cases have or will most likely contact`. This implies that law enforcement agencies may access a suspect user’s information before it is encrypted by VPN-services … Pretty much states that the FRA can pwn their servers if they deem the suspect is _most likely to contact_ it. They also wash their hands off of their own assertions. > Note that `the summary is not exhaustive` and its `sole purpose is to provide you, as a user, with a certain overall, general understanding` of the new law and an understanding of why Mullvad VPN is not subject to the new law. The `summary is not intended to constitute, and must not be used as, professional legal advice` in any respect. All use of the content is at the `user's own risk`. In other words, do your own research. > [@anon80779245](#): > > article you linked states Yeah, I know. You expect them to say otherwise? (: My point is, the law grants FRA an astonishingly wide-berth. --- ## Post 71 by @anon80779245 — 2024-12-26T12:57:59Z > [@ignoramous](#): > > Pretty much states that the FRA can pwn their servers if they deem the suspect _most likely to contact_ it. As I understand it, it says they can (covertly) install software or hardware on a user devices, not on their server. I guess they could MITM communications. But I am not sure if this is really important for non-Swedish users. > [@ignoramous](#): > > Note that `the summary is not exhaustive` and its `sole purpose is to provide you, as a user, with a certain overall, general understanding` of the new law and an understanding of why Mullvad VPN is not subject to the new law. The `summary is not intended to constitute, and must not be used as, professional legal advice` in any respect. All use of the content is at the `user's own risk`. It’s a bit oddly written, but this is a class IANAL warning. --- ## Post 72 by @ignoramous — 2024-12-26T13:00:44Z > [@anon80779245](#): > > they can (covertly) install software or hardware on a user devices, not on their server It is clearly spelt out that FRA can do so on “devices a suspect will most likely contact”. This covers, as far as my reading comprehension goes, a VPN provider’s software & hardware, if you’re the suspect “contacting” it over WireGuard, say. And secretly, at that… which I take it to mean any Swedish provider, if they’re owned by the FRA, they cannot be transparent about it. > [@anon80779245](#): > > but this is a class IANAL warning Yeah, my point is, if it were me, I’d rather take 3p expert opinion on it and not a business’ that wants to save face. --- ## Post 75 by @Niek-de-Wilde — 2024-12-26T14:20:07Z If anything all of this points to a conclusion which we already point to, if you want anonymity, use tor. --- ## Post 76 by @phnx — 2024-12-26T15:51:29Z > [@ignoramous](#): > > Pretty much states that the FRA can pwn their servers if they deem the suspect is _most likely to contact_ it. This ignores the fact that the proportionality principle exists. It would not be proportional to compromise an entire Mullvad server or more likely a set of Mullvad servers to target a single user. Moreover it would, strictly technically, be significantly more difficult than simply targeting the users endpoint devices. --- ## Post 77 by @ignoramous — 2024-12-26T17:06:02Z > [@phnx](#): > > ignores the fact that the proportionality principle exists Prop what? I’d be very surprised if this bothers the FRA at all, assuming it applies (I presume it wouldn’t given the _Act_ or rather Mullvad’s reading of the _Act_ very explicitly makes it clear that the devices a suspect “contacts” are fair game). If you’re any familiar with the FRA you know the providers are getting owned if the FRA wants them owned. > [@phnx](#): > > Moreover it would, strictly technically, be significantly more difficult than simply targeting the users endpoint devices. Think you misread. Per my reading, the _Act_ seems to grant the law enforcement the power to “install hardware & software” on provider’s equipments … secretly. This isn’t “strictly more difficult” (as the provider _has_ to comply); rather a super straightforward, super secret compromise. --- ## Post 79 by @anon80779245 — 2024-12-26T17:38:59Z > [@ignoramous](#): > > The conclusion I’m reaching is, Swedish providers don’t even meet [PG’s min criteria for VPNs](https://www.privacyguides.org/en/vpn/#security) (going by Mullvad’s interpretation of the law). Yes, they do. Mullvad cannot be forced to do secret logging. Period. Even IF Police wanted to compromise their servers, good luck doing that with Mullvad. They are extremely careful and check all their hardware on arrival. --- ## Post 80 by @ignoramous — 2024-12-26T17:40:03Z > [@anon80779245](#): > > Mullvad cannot be forced to do secret logging. Period. Period? Because you say so? That’s not what the law says, though? > [@anon80779245](#): > > extremely careful and check all their hardware on arrival. Not denying that, but… :upside_down_face: ![https://xkcd.com/538/](//forum-uploads.privacyguidesusercontent.com/original/2X/b/bb5b553ab292f19602541fc1eb8dcbe4f10ee294.png) --- ## Post 81 by @Valynor — 2024-12-26T18:32:43Z Keep this thread on-topic, please: “Cheaper VPN service recommendations?”