Brave vs Trivalent Security

Apathy towards the most popular category of extensions has to be for a reason. uBO Lite works well for now :slight_smile:

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has to be for a reason

eh. I guess we’ll have to disagree on that :slight_smile:

for now

Even without UBO-lite (or any extensions for that matter, I have them fully disabled), I don’t see ads. This is because of Trivalent’s utilization of the built-in subresource filter but then also by streaming youtube videos and twitch streams directly to celluloid/mpv, which blocks ads automatically. There’s also Freetube, if you can tolerate Electron, and Pipeline, if you can tolerate using a Piped proxy :slight_smile:

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offtopic

@RoyalOughtness talking about less bad.

I’m aware that the project doesn’t recommend KDE. Can you share your perspective about the Gnome Sushi in Secureblue?

https://lemmy.world/post/27398324

That’s not true. You can install any MV2 extension, it’s just that they provide a direct way to install 4 selected MV2 extensions should they be removed from the CWS. And also when Google removes support from upstream, they will keep MV2 support for all extensions, but they will only fix bugs if it concern one of the 4 approved extensions. At least that’s my understanding.

Brave includes a warning about the security risks of the Flatpak version and recommends different options, so they have considered security in this case.

Yes, it is

Update: As of v1.81, we host the following Manifest V2 (MV2) extensions on Brave’s backend: AdGuard, uBO, uMatrix, NoScript. These extensions operate independently from the equivalent versions that are currently present on the Chrome Web Store, and have to be downloaded separately. Users can download and enable these 4 extensions from the brave://settings/extensions/v2 page.

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I made a feature request on the Brave Discourse that you can vote for, over the security concerns in this thread :smiley:

They already have an open issue for this. I’m not sure what purpose it serves to bring it up again on their forums. Use hardening patches from Trivalent Ā· Issue #45860 Ā· brave/brave-browser Ā· GitHub

The forum topic I made isn’t limited to Trivalent patches, it also talks about stuff like MV2
But thanks for bringing up the Github issue, I wasn’t aware of it

Slightly off-topic, but are there plans to package Trivalent for other Linux distributions besides Secureblue and Arch (AUR) in the future? Specifically Debian-based distributions and possibly NixOS?

We don’t have any plans to. Also, we’re not at all involved in the AUR package and it isn’t being kept up to date, so you shouldn’t use it. As of writing this, it’s a month out of date, missing numerous CVE fixes including zero-days.

On top of that, using Trivalent outside of secureblue is a security downgrade compared to using it in secureblue, because you’ll miss out on our SELinux policy that provides SELinux confinement for Trivalent. Our policy depends on interfaces from Fedora’s policy, so it’s not usable outside of Fedora-based distributions. We have plans to package our policy as an rpm instead of directly installing it into the images, but that would only be for sake of convenience for Trivalent users on Fedora or Fedora-based distributions other than secureblue.

If we were to decide to package Trivalent for other distros at some point in the distant future, it would mean several prerequisites for those distros. Those distros would have to provide robust SELinux support ootb, including a thoroughly tested base policy, enforcing mode by default, and a thorough set of available interfaces. As far as I know, the only distros that satisfy this prerequisite are RHEL-family distros (including openSUSE which I believe uses Fedora’s SELinux base policy, in fact Trivalent may simply work ootb already on openSUSE although I haven’t tried this so no guarantees :smile:).

TLDR: No, since packaging Trivalent for a variety of distros would encourage users to use Trivalent without SELinux confinement, which we have no intention of encouraging or supporting.

Edit: I left an explanation to the same effect at nixpkgs here.

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Would there still be any sort of security benefit even without SELinux confinement or does Trivalent depend entirely on that? And what should non-Fedora Linux users use instead (besides Chrome, Edge, or Brave)?

Would there still be any sort of security benefit even without SELinux confinement or does Trivalent depend entirely on that?

Yes it would still have security benefit, but it’s not something we’re interested in supporting/packaging for.

And what should non-Fedora Linux users use instead (besides Chrome, Edge, or Brave)?

You eliminated the only options I would consider recommending :sweat_smile: (Chrome/Edge, with certain changes via policy/config)

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You eliminated the only options I would consider recommending :sweat_smile: (Chrome/Edge, with certain changes via policy/config)

Basically what Cyber-Typhoon said, and I’m not sure I’d trust a browser that pushes AI and Crypto and has done things like inserting affiliates into URLs. Until there’s a security-focused Chromium fork that supports all major Linux distros there’s nothing to use (except Ungoogled Chromium, distro builds of Chromium, or any Firefox fork which I’d prefer anyways despite being less secure).

Cromite has some security patches, and it’s available on Linux.

It may be important to note that Cromite enables JPEG XL, and it isn’t really known how big of a security concern that might be. It’s also not recommended by GrapheneOS due to its ABP adblocker and fingerprinting methods, but you can just use uBO Lite instead of ABP, and a fingerprinting expert said randomization anti-fingerprinting is just as valid for thwarting naive fingerprinters.

All that and Cromite is maintained by a single person afaik. It seems like Cromite enables Manifest V2 and until uBO Lite and other Manifest V3 extensions can support the advanced dynamic filtering capabilities of uBlock Origin, I’m not switching to a browser that only supports Manifest V3.

That was three years ago. Fingerprinting may have changed since then.

there’s nothing to use

I can’t speak for other distros, but before we built Trivalent we used Fedora’s chromium package, somewhat hardened using policies and config. It wasn’t nearly as good of a solution as Trivalent, but it was the best option at the time. I can’t speak for chromium packages by other distros though. I know historically some have disabled several key security features, so you’ll have to do some investigating. But depending on how it’s packaged, that’s potentially an option, albeit not optimal.

Alternatively, if you have the time to learn packaging for your distro, there’s nothing stopping third parties from packaging Trivalent.

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I’m confused, Trivalent only supports MV3 and you said you wanted to use it. Also MV3 filtering capabilities can be really strong too:

Also, GrapheneOS’s Vanadium can be accessed with Desktop Mode, and Vanadium appears to meet your security criteria. Since GrapheneOS is a Linux distro, it technically would be something to use

There’s different threat models and use cases. My point is someone who values security is probably better off using a browser like Trivalent or Vanadium but there isn’t really a browser like that supports all major operating systems or at least Linux in general.

I wasn’t going to switch to Chromium, and I have my own use case which can’t be satisfied with any MV3-only browser. I use uBlock Origin for it’s dynamic filtering capabilities that uBO Lite and MV3 in general won’t support. Yes Manifest V3 has legitimate security improvements and that’s great, and if it wasn’t enforced or if it allowed dynamic filtering which can actually improve privacy moreso than static filters, I’d have no problem with it.

This guide from RKNF404 (primary Trivalent maintainer) may be of interest to folks here: GitHub - RKNF404/chromium-hardening-guide: Harden chromium (somewhat)

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